Peterborough by election - Brexit Party for the win?

The general populace, in a referendum, voted to Leave the European Union. That as the question, that was our answer,

But thanks to a Remainer Parliament we are not going to leave the European Union. That is the betrayal. It isn't a far right myth (whatever the hell that even means) it is a cold hard, fact.

What part of all this is so hard for Remainers to understand? Serious question, what part of the meaning of the word "leave" are you unable to grasp??
Are you so ill informed that you think that continuing to pay the billions of pounds to prop up the non paying member states every year, still being subject to all the legal and political diktats of the Brussels commissars, still being unable to sign independent trade deals, still subject to the Common Fisheries Policy, still unable to stop any EU national who fancies it coming to live here, still having to vote in the fcucking EU elections, constitute leaving?

1D188E86-9882-4C31-8359-229A0C112B8F.jpg.jpeg

Reply 181

generallee

OP

16

Say something substantive and I will take you more seriously.

The below isn't an argument.

Original post by ThePootisPower

Reply 182

ThePootisPower

10

Original post by generallee

The general populace, in a referendum, voted to Leave the European Union. That was the question, that was our answer,

But thanks to a Remainer Parliament we are not going to leave the European Union. That is the betrayal. It isn't a far right myth (whatever the hell that even means) it is a cold hard, fact.

What part of all this is so hard for Remainers to understand? Serious question, what part of the meaning of the word "leave" are you unable to grasp??

Are you so "deluded" that you think that continuing to pay the billions of pounds to prop up the non paying member states every year, still being subject to all the legal and political diktats of the Brussels commissars, still being unable to sign independent trade deals, still subject to the Common Fisheries Policy, still unable to stop any EU national who fancies it coming to live here, still having to vote in the fcucking EU elections, constitute leaving?

"Non paying member states" There aren't any of these. Every country pays.

While we are one of the 9 countries that is a net contributor rather than a net recipient, and are the 3rd highest contributer, we get a rebate on our contributions squarely to reduce this deficit. Also, the access to the EU single market is much more valuable than the cash we spend on the EU budget (and if cash did matter that much to the Government, we probably would be more aggressively hounding Chris Grayling for the 13.8 million deal with Seaborne Freight, who had never even run a ferry service, and wouldn't be spending £4bn on No Deal preparations that should be entirely unnecessary, considering the ability to Revoke Article 50 lies squarely with us.).

"still being subject to all the legal and political diktats of the Brussels commissars,"

Commissars? How are elected representatives from every EU member state who decide on laws in the EU parliament in any way similar to the Soviet commissar system!?

Let's break this down, shall we? There are a few major bodies in the EU that decide laws, but I think we'll just cut this short - The EU parliament can veto or amend any laws proposed by the European Commission. Commissioners are assigned like this: "Unlike in the Council of the European Union, where members are directly and indirectly elected, and the European Parliament, where members are directly elected, the Commissioners are proposed by the Council of the European Union, on the basis of suggestions made by the national governments, and then appointed by the European Council after the approval of the European Parliament.".

While they are not directly elected, they are accountable to the European Parliament, and are backed by the Council of the EU, an intergovernmental body which is effectively automatically assigned members by the domestic governments of each member state. In otherwords, the two groups in the EU that matter are the MEPs, who we democratically elect, and the Commissioners, who are representatives of EU member state governments.

So not Brussels commissars then. I'm not going into further detail there because while there's a hellish amount of features of EU legislation, it's blatantly obvious that you're just spouting drivel that wouldn't look out of place on Infowars. That, and wikipedia is a brick wall of text that I cba to deal with.

"still being unable to sign independent trade deals"

"Being a part of the EU means the UK (or any other EU member) cannot implement its own trade deals. Trade negotiations are instead handled by the EU on behalf of its members. These existing arrangements are designed to make trade easier between the EU and the rest of the world. This could include: relaxing certain rules, reducing taxes (tariffs) on imports and exports, or granting easier market access." - BBC Reality Check.

Every country has to deal with this, and this is because EU standards have to be met by trade deals. It would compromise the integrity of the EU and of international trade to go behind the EU's back with trade deals. Also, the UK agreed to this.

"still subject to the Common Fisheries Policy"

https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/can-europe-make-it/eu-common-fisheries-policy-has-helped-not-harmed-uk-fisheries-0/

"It is also worth noting that even now, when stocks are being rebuilt, the UK industry’s gross profit margin has increased from a healthy 15% in 2008 to 35% in 2014 and now stands at €367 million, the highest in the EU. For the UK fishing industry, EU management seems to be delivering benefits despite protests coming from the UK itself."

The CFP is preventing overfishing and giving all member states a fair playing field for business. Your point is invalid and frankly is yet another case of Brexiteers blindly following what gormless politicians say without understanding the laws themselves.

"still unable to stop any EU national who fancies it coming to live here"

A: All info below is sourced from this link:

B: £10 says you're a xenophobe. Not really a debating point here, just summat I think is likely. Also, you do realise "By way of example, the Migration Observatory has calculated that in 2013, 47.1% of migrants to the United Kingdom were non-European nationals, while 14.4% were British nationals returning to the United Kingdom after a prolonged absence (38.2% were nationals of other EU Member States)". So this won't solve your obvious problem with immigration. Also, EU

C: "Like all EU Member States, the UK is subject to obligations to ensure the freedom of EU citizens to move and reside freely within the EU.[1] Freedom of movement of workers and rights of establishment in other Member States were fundamental aspects of the common market well before the UK joined the EEC in 1973 and have remained of significance to the internal market programme.[2]"

"These rights do not undermine the UK’s ability to control its borders, for three principal reasons.

1.

First, the largest category of migrants to the UK come from outside the EU, and are not entitled to rely on EU laws on freedom of movement.[3] The UK’s ability to restrict entry to this group is unaffected by its membership of the EU.

2.

Secondly, whereas many Member States have replaced individual controls with a common policy at their common frontier (known as the Schengen Area),[4] the UK chose to retain its right to independent border control and is entitled to check the identity of every individual entering the country.[5]

3.

Thirdly, EU law does not provide nationals from other EU Member States with an unlimited right to enter or remain in the UK. Most importantly, the right to live in the UK without any conditions or formalities only lasts for three months.[6] In addition, the right is subject to limitations “on grounds of public policy, public security or public health”.[7] Specifically, the UK retains the right to restrict the freedom of movement and residence of EU citizens and their family members, where their personal conduct represents “a genuine, present and sufficiently serious threat affecting one of the fundamental interests of society”[8] and the home Member State of any expelled EU nationals must allow those nationals to re-enter their territory.[9]"

D: "The debate about economic migration within the EU needs to be put into context. While immigration is an emotive topic and can cause substantial social unrest, freedom of movement within the EU internal market helps address skill shortages and the consequences of an ageing population. According to the OECD, migrants are more likely to be net contributors if they are younger, in work and skilled. The evidence suggests that on average, EU migrants make a net contribution to UK public finances.[10] The Office for Budget Responsibility estimates that immigration will reduce public sector net debt as a share of UK GDP over the long term relative to the levels it would otherwise reach.[11]"

"still having to vote in the fcucking EU elections":

oh no, how dare we fulfil legal obligations to ensure our country is actually represented in the EU parliament that were well in place ages ago, (that we're only meeting because May couldn't push her terrible, terrible deal through commons).

Almost everything you just said is either A: a alt-right talking point being parroted by someone with no knowledge of EU legislation, B: horrifically incorrect or C: complete *******s (commissars!? really!?).

And again, the EU isn't responsible for the brexit mess. May and the Tories have ruined the process by triggering Article 50 before having a deal ready to pass through commons, and because of unprecedented lies and a wild array of opinions and comments being shared in favour of leave, such as comments simultaneously being made Pro-Customs Union and Anti-Customs Union, the Leave camp is now clearly being shown up as incompetent liars who misrepresented the vote and effectively said whatever they thought would win them the vote.

While the EU isn't perfect, Brexit is a goddamn mess.

(edited 4 years ago)

Reply 183

username4406682

19

Original post by ThePootisPower

"Non paying member states" There aren't any of these. Every country pays.

While we are one of the 9 countries that is a net contributor rather than a net recipient, and are the 3rd highest contributer, we get a rebate on our contributions squarely to reduce this deficit. Also, the access to the EU single market is much more valuable than the cash we spend on the EU budget (and if cash did matter that much to the Government, we probably would be more aggressively hounding Chris Grayling for the 13.8 million deal with Seaborne Freight, who had never even run a ferry service, and wouldn't be spending £4bn on No Deal preparations that should be entirely unnecessary, considering the ability to Revoke Article 50 lies squarely with us.).

"still being subject to all the legal and political diktats of the Brussels commissars," Commissars!? How are the elected representatives from every EU member state who decide on laws in the EU parliament in any way similar to the Soviet commissar system!?

Let's break this down, shall we? There are a few major bodies in the EU that decide laws, but I think we'll just cut this short - The EU parliament can veto or amend any laws proposed by the European Commission. Commissioners are assigned like this: "Unlike in the Council of the European Union, where members are directly and indirectly elected, and the European Parliament, where members are directly elected, the Commissioners are proposed by the Council of the European Union, on the basis of suggestions made by the national governments, and then appointed by the European Council after the approval of the European Parliament.".

While they are not directly elected, they are accountable to the European Parliament, and are backed by the Council of the EU, an intergovernmental body which is effectively automatically assigned members by the domestic governments of each member state. In otherwords, the two groups in the EU that matter are the MEPs, who we democratically elect, and the Commissioners, who are representatives of EU member state governments.

So not Brussels commissars then. I'm not going into further detail there because while there's a hellish amount of features of EU legislation, it's blatantly obvious that you're just spouting drivel that wouldn't look out of place on Infowars.

"still being unable to sign independent trade deals"

"Being a part of the EU means the UK (or any other EU member) cannot implement its own trade deals. Trade negotiations are instead handled by the EU on behalf of its members. These existing arrangements are designed to make trade easier between the EU and the rest of the world. This could include: relaxing certain rules, reducing taxes (tariffs) on imports and exports, or granting easier market access." - BBC Reality Check.

Every country has to deal with this, and this is because EU standards have to be met by trade deals. It would compromise the integrity of the EU and of international trade to go behind the EU's back with trade deals. Also, the UK agreed to this.

"still subject to the Common Fisheries Policy"

https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/can-europe-make-it/eu-common-fisheries-policy-has-helped-not-harmed-uk-fisheries-0/

"It is also worth noting that even now, when stocks are being rebuilt, the UK industry’s gross profit margin has increased from a healthy 15% in 2008 to 35% in 2014 and now stands at €367 million, the highest in the EU. For the UK fishing industry, EU management seems to be delivering benefits despite protests coming from the UK itself."

The CFP is preventing overfishing and giving all member states a fair playing field for business. Your point is invalid and frankly is yet another case of Brexiteers blindly following what gormless politicians say without understanding the laws themselves.

"still unable to stop any EU national who fancies it coming to live here"

A: All info below is sourced from this link:

B: £10 says you're a xenophobe. Not really a debating point here, just summat I think is likely. Also, you do realise "By way of example, the Migration Observatory has calculated that in 2013, 47.1% of migrants to the United Kingdom were non-European nationals, while 14.4% were British nationals returning to the United Kingdom after a prolonged absence (38.2% were nationals of other EU Member States)".

C: "Like all EU Member States, the UK is subject to obligations to ensure the freedom of EU citizens to move and reside freely within the EU.[1] Freedom of movement of workers and rights of establishment in other Member States were fundamental aspects of the common market well before the UK joined the EEC in 1973 and have remained of significance to the internal market programme.[2]"

"These rights do not undermine the UK’s ability to control its borders, for three principal reasons.

1.

First, the largest category of migrants to the UK come from outside the EU, and are not entitled to rely on EU laws on freedom of movement.[3] The UK’s ability to restrict entry to this group is unaffected by its membership of the EU.

2.

Secondly, whereas many Member States have replaced individual controls with a common policy at their common frontier (known as the Schengen Area),[4] the UK chose to retain its right to independent border control and is entitled to check the identity of every individual entering the country.[5]

3.

Thirdly, EU law does not provide nationals from other EU Member States with an unlimited right to enter or remain in the UK. Most importantly, the right to live in the UK without any conditions or formalities only lasts for three months.[6] In addition, the right is subject to limitations “on grounds of public policy, public security or public health”.[7] Specifically, the UK retains the right to restrict the freedom of movement and residence of EU citizens and their family members, where their personal conduct represents “a genuine, present and sufficiently serious threat affecting one of the fundamental interests of society”[8] and the home Member State of any expelled EU nationals must allow those nationals to re-enter their territory.[9]"

D: "The debate about economic migration within the EU needs to be put into context. While immigration is an emotive topic and can cause substantial social unrest, freedom of movement within the EU internal market helps address skill shortages and the consequences of an ageing population. According to the OECD, migrants are more likely to be net contributors if they are younger, in work and skilled. The evidence suggests that on average, EU migrants make a net contribution to UK public finances.[10] The Office for Budget Responsibility estimates that immigration will reduce public sector net debt as a share of UK GDP over the long term relative to the levels it would otherwise reach.[11]"

"still having to vote in the fcucking EU elections":

oh how dare we fulfil legal obligations to ensure our country is actually represented in the EU parliament that were well in place, and that we're only meeting because May couldn't push her terrible, terrible deal through commons.

You're citing OpenDemocracy. That site makes Carole Codswallop look like a voice of reason.

Reply 184

ThePootisPower

10

Original post by Mossbourne

You're citing OpenDemocracy. That site makes Carole Codswallop look like a voice of reason.

Ah yes, because the STECF, a EU body which has British members is clearly a irrelevant source because it got cited by OpenDemocracy. While OD is left-leaning, my point directly cites a professional source from within the article.

You've intentionally cherry-picked something you could attack freely rather than actually engage in a debate.

You're so full of fecal matter, you could be mistaken for a septic tank at first glance. Delete your account.

(edited 4 years ago)

Reply 185

username4406682

19

Original post by ThePootisPower

You're so full of fecal matter, you could be mistaken for a septic tank at first glance. Delete your account.

1) No.
2) Very polite of you...

(edited 4 years ago)

Reply 186

Fullofsurprises

20

Nigel Farage. Man of the people. :rofl:

https://mobile.twitter.com/hopenothate/status/1129809626550218756

Reply 187

Retired_Messiah

21

With all the stuff I've seen and read I honestly think people (or specifically people on the internet) are getting far too enthusiastic about the brexit party's prospects. It is just another "hey we're more right wing than the conservatives" party. We've had those before. They've not done great.

While dissatisfaction with conservative's handling of Brexit might move a few votes their way, they're not substantially different from UKIP. So might do alright in European elections, but for electing MPs I just don't see it.

Reply 188

username4406682

19

Original post by Fullofsurprises

Nigel Farage. Man of the people. :rofl:

https://mobile.twitter.com/hopenothate/status/1129809626550218756

Your argument is basically "He went fox-hunting once".

Reply 189

Fullofsurprises

20

Original post by Mossbourne

Your argument is basically "He went fox-hunting once".

He went fox hunting, yes.

He went to Dulwich College, where he was an active fascist.

He described himself as 'skint' not long ago, despite earning more than £300K a year from personal work, £100K as an MEP, £450K donated to him for personal use by Aaron Banks (source of these funds unknown) and as well as his large house in Belgium and houses elsewhere, he also required a Chelsea house, also gifted to him by Banks for his use in London.

I suppose you're going to start claiming he's working class next?

Reply 190

username4406682

19

Original post by Fullofsurprises

He went fox hunting, yes.

He went to Dulwich College, where he was an active fascist.

He described himself as 'skint' not long ago, despite earning more than £300K a year from personal work, £100K as an MEP, £450K donated to him for personal use by Aaron Banks (source of these funds unknown) and as well as his large house in Belgium and houses elsewhere, he also required a Chelsea house, also gifted to him by Banks for his use in London.

I suppose you're going to start claiming he's working class next?

Do you have any evidence that he is a fascist? "Dave down the pub says his mate saw him singing Hitler-Jugend songs" doesn't count.

Reply 191

ColinDent

14

Original post by Mossbourne

Do you have any evidence that he is a fascist? "Dave down the pub says his mate saw him singing Hitler-Jugend songs" doesn't count.

Maybe his source is this.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/nigel-farage-fascist-nazi-song-gas-them-all-ukip-brexit-schoolfriend-dulwich-college-a7185236.html

And I mean it does seem so very truthful because it's investigative journalism at it's finest after all the source was a " great friend"
Edit, sorry"close friend" he even said good on you when Nigel was giving the MEP's a hard time.

(edited 4 years ago)

Reply 192

username4406682

19

Original post by ColinDent

Maybe his source is this.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/nigel-farage-fascist-nazi-song-gas-them-all-ukip-brexit-schoolfriend-dulwich-college-a7185236.html

And I mean it does seem so very truthful because it's investigative journalism at it's finest after all the source was a " great friend"
Edit, sorry"close friend" he even said good on you when Nigel was giving the MEP's a hard time.

There's no evidence there bar hearsay.

Reply 193

ColinDent

14

Original post by Mossbourne

There's no evidence there bar hearsay.

Oh I know that 😉

Reply 194

username4406682

19

Original post by ColinDent

Oh I know that 😉

So why use it to imply that Nigel Farage is a fascist?

Reply 195

ColinDent

14

Original post by Mossbourne

So why use it to imply that Nigel Farage is a fascist?

I didn't, I was providing an example of the kind of misguided bs some people use to try to make him out to be one.

Reply 196

Fullofsurprises

20

Original post by Mossbourne

So why use it to imply that Nigel Farage is a fascist?

Original post by Mossbourne

Do you have any evidence that he is a fascist? "Dave down the pub says his mate saw him singing Hitler-Jugend songs" doesn't count.

It's good that you've at least accepted that he is no 'man of the people'.

We've already covered the Dulwich College Junior Fascist issue - a number of staff and students who knew him back then have stated that he was at the very least fascinated by Nazism at school, and not in a good way.

Reply 197

username4406682

19

Original post by Fullofsurprises

It's good that you've at least accepted that he is no 'man of the people'.

We've already covered the Dulwich College Junior Fascist issue - a number of staff and students who knew him back then have stated that he was at the very least fascinated by Nazism at school, and not in a good way.

1) I have never posted about Nigel Farage's social class or lack of it - we do not need to discuss the Marxist theory of the "proletariat" against the "bourgoisie" as it is proven to be rubbish time and time again.
2) Teachers could;
be biased
be lying.
I had a teacher who was a devoted Marxist and called the entire Tory Party fascist - it is likely that Farage had a similar teacher who called anything right of Blair a fascist.

Reply 198

Good bloke

19

Original post by Fullofsurprises

We've already covered the Dulwich College Junior Fascist issue - a number of staff and students who knew him back then have stated that he was at the very least fascinated by Nazism at school, and not in a good way.