The Student Room Group

New price cap - lower inflation but more in the end

Truss has announced the new plan to alleviate pressure on households and businesses from surging energy prices.
https://www.theguardian.com/business/2022/sep/08/liz-truss-energy-bills-plan-key-points

This is about the cap, so apparently there will be a limit now and for the next couple of years for households set at £2500.

This is still huge for poorer households. The government are also giving £600 to people on benefits and £400 (roughly) to all residential energy users. People renting should in most cases get this money as well, unless their energy costs are included in the rent.

There are aspects of this that do definitely help consumers, but it's still going to be very hard for a lot of people this winter.

I feel completely unconvinced by the government's proposals to improve domestic energy supplies and reduce our reliance on overseas gas and oil. The idea that onshore fracking will fix this is garbage, as is the proposed 'turning up' of North Sea oil and gas taps. These products will still be sold at international prices and have no effect on those. The only benefit will be to balance of trade.

Inflation was due (according to Goldman Sachs) to rise to 22% next year, now apparently this might 'only' be 17%, which will still be the worst inflation for decades. The government are to finance the energy price cap by borrowing more than £100bn, much of which won't be real borrowing, but money printing, which is highly inflationary.

There will be no windfall profits on the big oil and gas corporations. So far they have made more than £175bn extra profit during this crisis.

Scroll to see replies

Reply 1
Original post by Fullofsurprises
The government are to finance the energy price cap by borrowing more than £100bn, much of which won't be real borrowing, but money printing, which is highly inflationary.

When will the money printing restart?

Are the forecast interest rate rises off the table now then?
Original post by Quady
When will the money printing restart?

Are the forecast interest rate rises off the table now then?

I assume it will restart almost immediately given the scale of the proposed borrowing, this is more than £100bn on top of an already vast debt pile, is it really plausible the govt can sell this many bonds in a globally saturated market, other than at abnormally unaffordable rates?
Reply 3
Original post by Fullofsurprises
I assume it will restart almost immediately given the scale of the proposed borrowing, this is more than £100bn on top of an already vast debt pile, is it really plausible the govt can sell this many bonds in a globally saturated market, other than at abnormally unaffordable rates?


By almost immediately you mean within the next month?

I assumed that the Bank of England intends to continue quantitative tightening and to raise interest rates. I'd be delighted to be wrong as I'd just taken out a mortgage on a tracker rate.
Original post by Quady
By almost immediately you mean within the next month?

I assumed that the Bank of England intends to continue quantitative tightening and to raise interest rates. I'd be delighted to be wrong as I'd just taken out a mortgage on a tracker rate.

I'm sure rates will continue to rise, doing serious damage. My query was to do with them actually being able to fund the debt by selling gilts, etc. Perhaps they will but in recent times they haven't managed it to varying degrees partly deliberately and partly because the markets were saturated or spurned them. Gilt rates have also been rising though, so perhaps they will be successful but just at higher long term cost to the taxpayer.

This is my main objection to what is happening - it's going to fall on the taxpayer. It should be collected in higher corporate taxes from the energy sector.
Reply 5
is there incentive for rich people or those with high energy needs to restrict their usage if they are over £2,500 annually?
Original post by NJA
is there incentive for rich people or those with high energy needs to restrict their usage if they are over £2,500 annually?


Now - absolutely none. This policy has several serious moral hazards. It encourages the wealthy with big properties (and some businesses) to behave with contempt for the conservation of energy and the eventual cost to the taxpayer because it's a price cap. Another moral hazard is that it encourages producers to simply raise their prices, something I'm quite certain we're going to hear more about.

It would have been much better to target more help at the poorest, which is what is happening in much of the rest of the world. If I was a cynic, I would suggest this policy was devised to feather the nests of the shareholders of the big energy companies and those who trade in oil and gas whilst offering token help to consumers.
Original post by NJA
is there incentive for rich people or those with high energy needs to restrict their usage if they are over £2,500 annually?


Yes. The price cap does not mean your energy bill will be capped at £2,500. It places a cap on the unit price of energy that equates to a household using the average amount of energy having an energy bill of £2,500.

The average detached house can expect a bill of £3,300.
(edited 1 year ago)
Original post by Crazed cat lady
Yes. The price cap does not mean your energy bill will be capped at £2,500. It places a cap on the unit price of energy that equates to a household using the average amount of energy having an energy bill of £2,500.

The average detached house can expect a bill of £3,300.

Actually now I'm reading what Martin Lewis says about it, I'm puzzled as to what the policy really does mean in practise.
https://www.moneysavingexpert.com/news/2022/09/energy-bills-price-freeze-cost-of-living-government-liz-truss-/

It would appear that it's not an absolute cap, just a cap on typical rates per unit but you use more, you pay more? Is that correct?
Original post by Fullofsurprises
Actually now I'm reading what Martin Lewis says about it, I'm puzzled as to what the policy really does mean in practise.
https://www.moneysavingexpert.com/news/2022/09/energy-bills-price-freeze-cost-of-living-government-liz-truss-/

It would appear that it's not an absolute cap, just a cap on typical rates per unit but you use more, you pay more? Is that correct?


Yep. It is not a simple calculation (different energy suppliers, regional variations, etc.) but the regulator looks at the energy use of a theoretical average household and uses that to set energy unit caps and standing charge caps. So a lot of people will still get bill way over £2,500 a year.
(edited 1 year ago)
Reply 10
Original post by Fullofsurprises

This is my main objection to what is happening - it's going to fall on the taxpayer. It should be collected in higher corporate taxes from the energy sector.


Yes, this is fair enough.

So those $175bn profits....
....how do you propose we put a windfall tax on the world's largest energy producers?
1 - China National Petroleum Corporation
2 - China Petrochemical Corporation
3 - Saudi Aramco
4 - ExxonMobil
5 - Shell (this one I get as its a UK company)
6 - TotalEnergies
7 - Chevron Corporation
8 - BP (this one I get as its a UK company)
9 - Gazprom
10 - Lukoil
Reply 11
Original post by Fullofsurprises
Actually now I'm reading what Martin Lewis says about it, I'm puzzled as to what the policy really does mean in practise.
https://www.moneysavingexpert.com/news/2022/09/energy-bills-price-freeze-cost-of-living-government-liz-truss-/

It would appear that it's not an absolute cap, just a cap on typical rates per unit but you use more, you pay more? Is that correct?


Yes....
....just like the 'price cap' always has been since its introduction....?
Reply 12
Original post by Crazed cat lady
So a lot of people will still get bill way over £2,500 a year.


Yup, folk with multiple houses, detached houses, old listed houses, saunas/hot-tubs....
Original post by Crazed cat lady
Yes. The price cap does not mean your energy bill will be capped at £2,500. It places a cap on the unit price of energy that equates to a household using the average amount of energy having an energy bill of £2,500.

The average detached house can expect a bill of £3,300.

Also businesses aren't protected by the cap anyway.
Original post by Fullofsurprises

Inflation was due (according to Goldman Sachs) to rise to 22% next year, now apparently this might 'only' be 17%, which will still be the worst inflation for decades. The government are to finance the energy price cap by borrowing more than £100bn, much of which won't be real borrowing, but money printing, which is highly inflationary.


Goldman is yelling BS so it can exit pump.
Inflation is going no where near 22% and wont even stay near 17% lol.
They understand that the average Joe believes Gas prices will keep going higher.
Big Disclaimer ..... They wont. Gas and Oil is topped out.

What will happen is the GBP against the Dollar will crash because Liz Truss is doing money printer go brrr 130 billion. She is doing it at a major market low and the market isn't stupid, smart money will move GBP to risk on in under valued assets. FTSE100 might get a charity pump

And what will the normal people do when the GBP crashes vs the USD? Probably throw their life savings into Bitcoin the Ponzi Pyramid scheme. Thats where I take their life savings and pensions, then buy Chateaubriand and Merlot.

It is very likely the global markets will do a massive bull trap retrace and then continue their bearish trend because the only reason the markets pumped from 2020 was because of money printer go brrr.

Biden did his Green Energy Bill 370 Billion.
Liz has done her Energy Price Lock 130 Billion.
European Countries are securing Credit lines from Government ....
You must see where this is heading?

There will always be a pundit who says BUT BUT BUT Modern Monetary Theory.
And I am like LOL!
The Keynesian's in the group will always surface.
Ignore them they been wrong about this whole crisis and Paul Krugman belongs in Jail.

But anyway after this money printing madness pump say hello to a 1929 crash. Its going to be biblical.

Everyone is so terrified that Energy Prices are going to go up. Im not scared. Im on a variable tariff and not scared 1 bit.
I'll lock my tariff when Gas prices return to about 4p per KwH.
However inflation will go to 75% over the next 10 years I can guarantee that. It just wont happen next year.

The markets are all toast through and the Crypto ponzis are all going to do a NASDAQ flop.
(edited 1 year ago)
Reply 15
Original post by illegaltobepoor
Goldman is yelling BS so it can exit pump.
Inflation is going no where near 22% and wont even stay near 17% lol.
They understand that the average Joe believes Gas prices will keep going higher.
Big Disclaimer ..... They wont. Gas and Oil is topped out.

What will happen is the GBP against the Dollar will crash because Liz Truss is doing money printer go brrr 130 billion. She is doing it at a major market low and the market isn't stupid, smart money will move GBP to risk on in under valued assets. FTSE100 might get a charity pump

And what will the normal people do when the GBP crashes vs the USD? Probably throw their life savings into Bitcoin the Ponzi Pyramid scheme. Thats where I take their life savings and pensions, then buy Chateaubriand and Merlot.

It is very likely the global markets will do a massive bull trap retrace and then continue their bearish trend because the only reason the markets pumped from 2020 was because of money printer go brrr.

Biden did his Green Energy Bill 370 Billion.
Liz has done her Energy Price Lock 130 Billion.
European Countries are securing Credit lines from Government ....
You must see where this is heading?

There will always be a pundit who says BUT BUT BUT Modern Monetary Theory.
And I am like LOL!
The Keynesian's in the group will always surface.
Ignore them they been wrong about this whole crisis and Paul Krugman belongs in Jail.

But anyway after this money printing madness pump say hello to a 1929 crash. Its going to be biblical.

Everyone is so terrified that Energy Prices are going to go up. Im not scared. Im on a variable tariff and not scared 1 bit.
I'll lock my tariff when Gas prices return to about 4p per KwH.
However inflation will go to 75% over the next 10 years I can guarantee that. It just wont happen next year.

The markets are all toast through and the Crypto ponzis are all going to do a NASDAQ flop.


When will the money printing restart?
Are the forecast interest rate rises off the table now then?
Meanwhile energy companies making £150bn in profits this year alone. Absolutely criminal that there isn’t a further windfall tax imposed to pay for at least some of this.
Original post by imlikeahermit
Meanwhile energy companies making £150bn in profits this year alone. Absolutely criminal that there isn’t a further windfall tax imposed to pay for at least some of this.


Came out today that the B of E are also advancing £40bn in loans to the utilities to enable them to pay for gas and electricity, as at least some of them were struggling to do so. So not only are we about to pour taxpayer cash into the big corporations and OPEC with no strings attached but we are also pushing money into them via a different route. Hard to believe they will ever repay these 'loans'. It's sounding more and more like the 2008/9 banker's bonus protection scheme.
Original post by Fullofsurprises
Came out today that the B of E are also advancing £40bn in loans to the utilities to enable them to pay for gas and electricity, as at least some of them were struggling to do so. So not only are we about to pour taxpayer cash into the big corporations and OPEC with no strings attached but we are also pushing money into them via a different route. Hard to believe they will ever repay these 'loans'. It's sounding more and more like the 2008/9 banker's bonus protection scheme.

Completely agree. I don’t find it surprising that someone with links to energy companies, and who’s leadership campaign was indirectly funded by energy companies has protected their interests. I do however find it interesting that she’s so brazenly and without care decided to not just protect their interests but further them, and directly give them money from the taxpayers purse. How on earth is that free market? Thatcher would turn in her grave at the state of this.
Original post by imlikeahermit
Completely agree. I don’t find it surprising that someone with links to energy companies, and who’s leadership campaign was indirectly funded by energy companies has protected their interests. I do however find it interesting that she’s so brazenly and without care decided to not just protect their interests but further them, and directly give them money from the taxpayers purse. How on earth is that free market? Thatcher would turn in her grave at the state of this.

Yes, whatever it is, it's not Thatcherism. Actually it most resembles the Republican policies introduced by Newt Gingrich in the US, which are all about transferring taxpayer resources to the already very rich.

Quick Reply

Latest

Trending

Trending