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The Israel/Palestine Conflict Mk. IV

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I think instead of just maintaining ceasefires, the Israelis should continue to use the Iron Dome to defend themselves and not actually retaliate. Surely they'd be looked on far more favourably/with more understanding if they defended by destroying Hamas missiles, instead of launching their own attacks which kill civilians?

There are a number of problems with this.

1) The Iron Dome system does not destroy 100% of the rockets in its coverage area
2) The system only covers highly populated areas
3) Even with Iron Dome, Israeli citizens still need to run for cover every time a rocket is fired at their town or city
4) The Iron Dome system is very expensive to run

Reply 1621

serebro

I back the third parties. To be fair, I don't why the UN doesn't conduct a humanitarian invasion and force a unity between the two states. Granted, Israel and Gaza governments might be angry with this, but the civilians themselves want peace and the new generation of Israelis and Palestinians would simply see each as fellow countrymen instead of enemies.

Or foreign governments could simply refuse to talk to Israel and Palestine until they form an official peace agreement, or maybe even an alliance.

Israel and Gaza are both culprits, if you're backing one side over the other for the sake of 'humanity' or 'goodness', you're essentially supporting one bully actions to fight another bully, causing collateral damage to the people in the middle of it.

(edited 9 years ago)

Reply 1622

interact

All this tremendous amount of violence done in Gaza and not once do you hear people talk about Jewish violence, or Judaism as a source of violence...highlighting the propaganda against Islam.

Reply 1623

UniOfLife

Original post by Dhibla

The thing is it IS about who's doing the killing. The protests are about delegitimising the deaths of those people and demanding coverage. Israel is a state which is considered 'good' as it has no sanctions on it, gets regular funding from our governments and is diplomatically friendly with western powers. We thus expect they don't massacre people, and if they do we expect our governments to cut ties with them economically until it stops. That is what the protests are about. They are 100% about who's doing it and how our governments can stop it by taking Israel's power away from them. But because it's about Israel doesn't mean it's about the Jewish race. My argument isn't bull****. It is rational. You are making stupid assumptions and that is bull****

You started off by saying that the protests are purely humanitarian. Now you admit that you don't care about people dying so long as they're not being killed by the good guys.

Reply 1624

Agapelove

dont be shy to make this point sir, its a perfectly valid one.

I'm not a sir. I'm a woman, and proud of being a woman. :smile:

are you a jew?

No. I am an American whose ancestors are Scottish, Irish, English, Native American, and Dutch. What are you? Just curious.

because of course your peoples lands were indeed conquered by the arabs in the first place ( albeit from the romans) who didnt give any part of judea back to you when they took up residence.

? I'm not Jewish. While I'm not proud of it, American soldiers really hurt Arabs in Afghanistan and Iraq. That's not something that makes me happy, because I am a pacifist and believe both American invasions of Afghanistan and Iraq were wrong of my country, the USA, to do.

the point must also be made that this current conflict is indeed being made complicated by islamic doctrine, so its become more than what it is ( a straightforward border dispute). the islamists have the power in the islamic world and the dogma has always been ' every drop of muslim blood will be sacrificed to restore palestine to islam' - things are never going to go well after that sort of atitude. it must also be pointed out that islamic doctrine in general devalues life - most muslims you talk to will tell you they beleive life on earth is simply a 'test' and their 'real' life begins in 'jannah' (islamic paradise). andso islami is fully of glory for the shaheed ( martyr) whose blood is spilt for islamic causes - islam has a billion potential human sacrifices , and promotes the idea that their lives are worthless in the grand scheme of an islamic territorial success in palestine ( or indeed other conflict zones like chechnya kashmir etc)

the rather pathetic fallacy promoted by people on this thread by trying to stir emotions of palestinian victims of this conflict is that islamists treat the average muslim civilians lives as almost worthless anyway, hamas fire rockets from between their homes, knowing that they are marking their death warrants - and do so with glee

I think it's a very cunning strategy of Hamas to keep on attacking Israel with rockets, most of which are not doing damage, thanks to the Iron Dome. That keeps provoking Israel to attack Gaza, which kills civilians. :frown:

It's very cunning and sneaky, and I wish Israel would not have fallen for it.

Israel is wrong in attacking Gaza and is hurting itself as well as Gaza. :frown:

Israel should, in my opinion. stop attacking Gaza and instead just focus on protecting itself from Hamas' rockets and attacks. They made a grave mistake in attacking and killing. :frown:

I wish they had not done so.

I agree that Islam advocates fighting, as the Qur'an states to fight. This war is more than just a geographic one; it's a spiritual one as well. Islam wants control of its 3rd holy city (Jersualem), the one they stole from Judaism, since Muhammad claimed to have flown a winged steed from Arabia to Jerusalem. Islam can't bear the thought of Judaism having Jerusalem back as its only holy city.

Reply 1625

Pete_91

Original post by yo radical one

By this very same logic no Arab state outside the Arabian Gulf has any right to exist since they are all the product of conquest and imperialism

You are wrong anyway - the British with UN backing gave roughly have of the geographic piece of land to the Israelis and half to the Arabs, the Arabs didn't accept this and declared a war they subsequently lost.

The UN in 1945 was effectively the victors in the war, it wasn't representative of the world then as an authority and it certainly isn't now.

Half of the piece of land which we didn't own...we gave back our former colonies and territorial acquisitions from war to its people, yet we gave palestine to a foreign people (1918 census: 700,000 Arabs and 56,000 Jews) and bowed to terrorist tactics in the process.

This wasn't a civil divide like the velvet divorce, it was a post-war give-away and it finished Britain as a global power. Balfour and Eden in particular have got a lot of explaining to do, historically speaking of course.

Reply 1626

PerArduaAdAstra

Original post by UniOfLife

Good points.

Reply 1627

Dhibla

Original post by UniOfLife

You started off by saying that the protests are purely humanitarian. Now you admit that you don't care about people dying so long as they're not being killed by the good guys.

People dying is humanitarian. Children dying and waiting it to stop is humanitarian. Knowing your government can do something to stop it and so demanding they do, is humanitarian.

Reply 1628

#That'sNotMe

ImageUploadedByStudent Room1406057013.911987.jpg

Posted from TSR Mobile

Reply 1629

Agapelove

Original post by interact

All this tremendous amount of violence done in Gaza and not once do you hear people talk about Jewish violence, or Judaism as a source of violence...highlighting the propaganda against Islam.

As I have stated many times before, it is wrong of Israel to attack Gaza. They should not do it.

As a Christian, I believe Israel should obey Yeshua's (Jesus') commands to love their enemies (Matthew 5:44; Luke 6:27-37). I also believe Palestinians should obey Isa's (Jesus') command love their enemies too. However, not even 'Christian' nations obey Jesus' commands to love their enemies. :frown:

If Israel and Palestine and the USA and all nations would obey Jesus' commands to love their enemies, the world would be a much better and peaceful place.

Reply 1630

one2three_abc

[video="youtube;8EDW88CBo-8"]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8EDW88CBo-8[/video]

Reply 1631

Apocrypha

Israel is (when not being rocketed on a daily basis) a Secular state. A place where people of all races and religions can live together without being murdered for who they are, however Israel is a state that is surrounded by oppressed nations that want to destroy it.

Yeh i feel terribly bad for the innocent Palestinians, just trying to live a normal life, but I do no support the muslims in their fight against Israel, I look at countries such as Syria, Iraq, Afghanistan, Saudi Arabia and those aren't particularly nice countries, and if Israel wasn't as it is now, that is how it would be.

If only the whole of the middle east was Secular.

(edited 9 years ago)

Reply 1632

Chindits

Original post by #That'sNotMe

Posted from TSR Mobile

The historians would use this map.

Reply 1633

UniOfLife

Original post by Dhibla

People dying is humanitarian. Children dying and waiting it to stop is humanitarian. Knowing your government can do something to stop it and so demanding they do, is humanitarian.

Except that humanitarianism demands you care equally about ALL people dying no matter who they are or who is killing them. You have openly admitted that you and the other protestors against Israel do not care unless it is Israel (or some other good country) doing the killing. That is how you justified not protesting against Syria or anyone else.

So your claim to be all about humanitarianism is *******s.

Original post by Sic semper erat

I disagree that expense is a problem really. Its true that each missile costs $20,000, but imagine the cost of having to repair damaged property, or replacing a car, and so on. In London it cost us £30,000 to repair the loft.

Many thanks to the U.S. for investing hundreds of millions on this.

The point is that its asking a lot for Israel to just sit back and spend $20,000 every time Hamas fires a rocket and do absolutely nothing about it. That very quickly racks up and costs the country a fortune. It is not sustainable.

Reply 1634

The_Internet

Original post by yo radical one

Because by definition being a state excludes something from being a terrorist

Tell that to the US who is quick to declare whole nations as "terrorist states" or "promoters of terror" when they are happy to fund terrorism themselves...

Reply 1635

Ben_Dover

Original post by yo radical one

Prior to the 1960's, Israel's borders were what people agree Israel is with, no Gaza, no Golan and no West Bank. The Arabs initiated the Six Day War with repeated PLO attacks on Israel and Israel won, I don't see what you expect, Israel took the Sinai, the Golan, Gaza and the West Bank. Israel has since handed back both Gaza and the Sinai in full, for peace and recognition (which it hasn't exactly received). The Golan it's kept, although as far as I am aware, a great many Muslims living there are quietly pleased about this (it's better to live under an Israeli flag than get killed by Assad) leaving only really the West Bank.

But that wasn't Israeli land...it belonged to Palestine. They were placed there by the Brits and have since occupied almost the entire Palestine. Israel was never entitled to that much land.

Also with respect to your Einstein being extremely left wing, you don't have to be left wing to realise killing of civilians is just wrong. Just the other day I saw picture of a little girl dead and completely covered in blood. She was no more than 6 years old. Seeing something like that is just sickening.

If i locate that picture again I will post it here so you can too see how disturbing this war is.

Doesn't matter whether you're a Muslim or a Jew, you only have to be a human to realise it's wrong. Imagine it was your family in that situation

(edited 9 years ago)

Reply 1636

yo radical one

Original post by de_monies

Tell that to the US who is quick to declare whole nations as "terrorist states" or "promoters of terror" when they are happy to fund terrorism themselves...

I'm not American and I think the Americans are a nuisance when it comes to foreign policy.

Reply 1637

Apocrypha

Just like to point out the arab invasions of Israel in the past. People always forget that this country has been under attack for decades, and is theoretically still at war with much of the middle east.

When do you hear "Israel bombs Gaza Strip for no reason" (It might of happened im not 100 percent sure)

It is always "Israel bombs Gaza after Missile attack".

Three Israeli teenagers are murdered. Israelis mourn.

One Palestinian teenager is murdered soon after (claiming to be a retaliation)

"ISRAEL MONSTERS OPPRESSIVE MURDERERS DOWN WITH ZIONISM WHY IS THE WORLD NOT DOING ANYTHING LETS RIOT NOW"

Reply 1638

Diamante06

Original post by Snagprophet

Israel has given up so much land and people are still no satisfied. There's so many that think Israel wants to expand and it makes no sense.

And how much has Palestine given up??

Spoiler

Reply 1639

Dhibla

[QUOTE="UniOfLife;48675189"]Except that humanitarianism demands you care equally about ALL people dying no matter who they are or who is killing them. You have openly admitted that you and the other protestors against Israel do not care unless it is Israel (or some other good country) doing the killing. That is how you justified not protesting against Syria or anyone else.

So your claim to be all about humanitarianism is ****[/QUOTE

I don't know what you define humanitarianism to be but this is a dictionary definition: person who seeks to promote human welfare. Now I am stating that by going to the protest we are promoting human lives and welfare over diplomatic or economic ties. We go to those protests to ask our governments to condemn these killings as they do with any other massacre. The fact that anti Israeli protests get more turn out is not due to anti-semetism but because western nations favour Israel over say russia who gets condemned the hour of a shooting or Iran who have sanctions or Syria who they consider going to war with or iraq who they do go to war with. Our intentions are to protect human welfare, by asking our governments to. We would do it if it was Pakistan and our governments were silent. It doesn't matter who is dying. It's who's doing the killing and why our governments aren't reacting the same way we are, or upholding the values of international law enforcement indiscriminately.