Is a male feminist more likely to date a more masculine woman?
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Actually the report i was referring to was a study conducted fairly recently which followed UK rape cases from report to whatever conclusion they had so that they actually had the stats to say the rate of false reporting versus the case being dropped for various other reasons. Someone withdrawing their statement doesn't mean they lied, the police having lack of evidence doesn't mean a rape didn't happen. Just in the same way that jury deciding that a rape didn't occur doesn't actually mean it didn't.
What exactly don't I understand about the stats? Please feel free to educate me.
I really do love how some people can make random claims with no reference to any substantiated evidence but a mere female who claims to be a feminist has to lay out all her credentials and prove that she can even understand the statistics she read.
Rather than waiting for the mansplain would it help to know the source is male? And, at the time, the most prominent prosecutor in the country..oh and he was the one who commissioned the study? Or do you need to see my academic credentials too?
I really do love how some people can make random claims with no reference to any substantiated evidence but a mere female who claims to be a feminist has to lay out all her credentials and prove that she can even understand the statistics she read.
Rather than waiting for the mansplain would it help to know the source is male? And, at the time, the most prominent prosecutor in the country..oh and he was the one who commissioned the study? Or do you need to see my academic credentials too?
Original post by RayApparently
The extremists don't make the ideology. And third wave feminism is about a host of modern issues. It doesn't matter that the phrase has been used by some to attack.
If you believe that one thing isn't equal to another then to want equality for all you must want things for the group you consider disadvantaged. The idea that feminists don't want equality because they don't campaign for men's right's issues is laughable. I presume you don't walk into cancer research centres handing out pamphlets about Alzheimer's disease.
Apparently, you think that laws on paper make up for sexual harassment, glass ceilings and pay gaps? Or the fact that a female PM (one of a grand total of 2) makes up for less than 10% of FTSE CEOs being women?
And by the way, there is solid reasoning and even scholarly research on how all-women shortlists work and benefit our politics.
http://mlkrook.org/pdf/pa_2016.pdf:
"AWS women ask more parliamentary questions and speak more often in debates than other MPs"
"the subgroup [of Labour MPs] that asks by far the most questions is women selected via AWS"
"AWS women perform similarly to other MPs in terms of their rates of vote attendance, rebelliousness and replying to constituents"
If you believe that one thing isn't equal to another then to want equality for all you must want things for the group you consider disadvantaged. The idea that feminists don't want equality because they don't campaign for men's right's issues is laughable. I presume you don't walk into cancer research centres handing out pamphlets about Alzheimer's disease.
Apparently, you think that laws on paper make up for sexual harassment, glass ceilings and pay gaps? Or the fact that a female PM (one of a grand total of 2) makes up for less than 10% of FTSE CEOs being women?
And by the way, there is solid reasoning and even scholarly research on how all-women shortlists work and benefit our politics.
http://mlkrook.org/pdf/pa_2016.pdf:
"AWS women ask more parliamentary questions and speak more often in debates than other MPs"
"the subgroup [of Labour MPs] that asks by far the most questions is women selected via AWS"
"AWS women perform similarly to other MPs in terms of their rates of vote attendance, rebelliousness and replying to constituents"
How many hours do women work compared to men? You have to be prepared to work almost none stop to make it to the top and in general most women prefer to take time off for family but it is good to see you care about equality of results not opportunity.
Sexual harassment happens that is why we have laws against it what should happen in exchange a promotion and pay rise because of it?
The pay gap as it is presented isn't real it has been disproven multiple times, it is true on average women earn more but they also tend to work less hours, take more holidays and go into lower paid professions. Here is a non 3rd wave feminist on the issue https://youtu.be/58arQIr882w and the ons state the wage gap they talk about say 'These figures do not show differences in rates of pay for comparable jobs, and are affected by, for example, the proportion of men and women in different occupations.' http://visual.ons.gov.uk/what-is-the-gender-pay-gap/
How many female leaders has labour had? The Tory's have left the same barriers yet women seem to reach the top in the tories infinitely more than labour, we need women in politics yes but we shouldn't be giving them roles just because they are women.
Original post by joecphillips
Yes we do not live in the 1950's anymore but the problem now is we live in a time where we have gone to the other extreme and that is just as bad.
In the 50's dv wasn't talked about or solved but now dv is talked about openly as a way to secure the kids.
In the 50's dv wasn't talked about or solved but now dv is talked about openly as a way to secure the kids.
You think men are currently oppressed in the way that women were in the 1950s? You seriously think that?
Original post by RayApparently
You think men are currently oppressed in the way that women were in the 1950s? You seriously think that?
That is not what I said, we have gone to the other extreme where it is common knowledge that lies are told about dv to ensure child custody and the perception put across is that only women can be victims but that is not true yet the police tend to treat men as the aggressors in all situations.
You normally debate your position fairly rather than insinuating I mean something I have not said.
(edited 7 years ago)
Original post by joecphillips
How many hours do women work compared to men? You have to be prepared to work almost none stop to make it to the top and in general most women prefer to take time off for family but it is good to see you care about equality of results not opportunity.
Sexual harassment happens that is why we have laws against it what should happen in exchange a promotion and pay rise because of it?
The pay gap as it is presented isn't real it has been disproven multiple times, it is true on average women earn more but they also tend to work less hours, take more holidays and go into lower paid professions. Here is a non 3rd wave feminist on the issue https://youtu.be/58arQIr882w and the ons state the wage gap they talk about say 'These figures do not show differences in rates of pay for comparable jobs, and are affected by, for example, the proportion of men and women in different occupations.' http://visual.ons.gov.uk/what-is-the-gender-pay-gap/
How many female leaders has labour had? The Tory's have left the same barriers yet women seem to reach the top in the tories infinitely more than labour, we need women in politics yes but we shouldn't be giving them roles just because they are women.
Sexual harassment happens that is why we have laws against it what should happen in exchange a promotion and pay rise because of it?
The pay gap as it is presented isn't real it has been disproven multiple times, it is true on average women earn more but they also tend to work less hours, take more holidays and go into lower paid professions. Here is a non 3rd wave feminist on the issue https://youtu.be/58arQIr882w and the ons state the wage gap they talk about say 'These figures do not show differences in rates of pay for comparable jobs, and are affected by, for example, the proportion of men and women in different occupations.' http://visual.ons.gov.uk/what-is-the-gender-pay-gap/
How many female leaders has labour had? The Tory's have left the same barriers yet women seem to reach the top in the tories infinitely more than labour, we need women in politics yes but we shouldn't be giving them roles just because they are women.
The pay gap is real. There are still prevalent stereotypes that make young women feel that certain careers and environments aren't for them. If they end up earning less because of that then it's still a pay gap. I consider that to be a difference in opportunity because you don't just need the door to be open, you need to believe that you can go through it.
There are laws against sexual harassment and yet it's still pervasive and widespread. Feminism draws attention to it because you need a cultural change as well as a legal one.
You're asking me how many Labour leaders have been women? Is that supposed to be some kind of cheap dig? How many did the Liberals have? 43% of Labour MPs are women (not that this is in any way relevant). All-women shortlists have been conclusively proven to put worthy, deserving candidates into the House. The fact that these people might not have got in otherwise shows gender discrimination.
Common knowledge doesn't equal fact. It means that whatever belief someone wanted others to have, has managed to disperse among the community. Do you want to know why it's "common knowledge"? Because it is a myth perpetuated over and over in society and the media. There are some vindictive women in existence but "common knowledge" presumes all claims are false if made under various circumstances. It doesn't take into account that disclosures of abuse are most likely prompted by the removal of the abuser from the house
Original post by joecphillips
That is not what I said, we have gone to the other extreme where it is common knowledge that lies are told about dv to ensure child custody and the perception put across is that only women can be victims but that is not true yet the police tend to treat men as the aggressors in all situations.
You normally debate your position fairly rather than insinuating I mean something I have not said.
You normally debate your position fairly rather than insinuating I mean something I have not said.
I asked you a fair question. You said that we had gone from the opposite extreme to the 1950s discrimination women faced. The logical inference isn't "it is common knowledge that lies are told about dv to ensure child custody and the perception put across is that only women can be victims".
Original post by RayApparently
The pay gap is real. There are still prevalent stereotypes that make young women feel that certain careers and environments aren't for them. If they end up earning less because of that then it's still a pay gap. I consider that to be a difference in opportunity because you don't just need the door to be open, you need to believe that you can go through it.
There are laws against sexual harassment and yet it's still pervasive and widespread. Feminism draws attention to it because you need a cultural change as well as a legal one.
You're asking me how many Labour leaders have been women? Is that supposed to be some kind of cheap dig? How many did the Liberals have? 43% of Labour MPs are women (not that this is in any way relevant). All-women shortlists have been conclusively proven to put worthy, deserving candidates into the House. The fact that these people might not have got in otherwise shows gender discrimination.
There are laws against sexual harassment and yet it's still pervasive and widespread. Feminism draws attention to it because you need a cultural change as well as a legal one.
You're asking me how many Labour leaders have been women? Is that supposed to be some kind of cheap dig? How many did the Liberals have? 43% of Labour MPs are women (not that this is in any way relevant). All-women shortlists have been conclusively proven to put worthy, deserving candidates into the House. The fact that these people might not have got in otherwise shows gender discrimination.
There are stereotypes about everyone, if the door is open and they don't go through it then they can only blame themselves, there are 2 threads recently on this forum where people have tried to talk males out of going into their chosen career paths but they took the path as they were committed. The opportunity is there for everyone if they do not have the mental strength to take it that is on them.
If you want to talk about the reason why people might be scared to go through the door I would say it is a self fulfilling prophecy when people tell you that if you go through a door you will be abused then that isn't really helping people go through the door is it?
It exists it isn't widespread unless you keep extending the definition like the bbc poll did. The rape case I linked earlier the victim had previously been sexually assaulted by the 'victim' but it was ignored for reasons if they were said to a woman would of caused uproar. It exists but it isn't a cultural thing people who sexually harass people are not exactly at the top of society's most liked people.
It is a fair point, labour do not hold female MPs to the same standards of men for nomination and they don't reach the top, I would suggest there could be a reason for that link, whereas nobody misses out due to sexual discrimination when you actively openly discriminate.
It does not show that there is gender discrimination it shows that there is problems with the way labour MPs are selected I'm sure there are plenty of male deserving candidates that miss out but that could possibly be because of the clear discrimination labour enjoy.
Also in rl I do not class my self as lib dem, labour, Tory or any other party I will vote for the party I feel is best at that time rather than being loyal to a brand.
(edited 7 years ago)
If it makes you happy to come on here and cry about how terrible society and in particular the justice system is treating men, saying men are victims, and then tell others not to to "play the victim". If that's your thing, go for it.
But it shows anyone with half a brain and not blinded by bias, that you are full of it.
But it shows anyone with half a brain and not blinded by bias, that you are full of it.
Original post by RayApparently
The pay gap is real. There are still prevalent stereotypes that make young women feel that certain careers and environments aren't for them. If they end up earning less because of that then it's still a pay gap. I consider that to be a difference in opportunity because you don't just need the door to be open, you need to believe that you can go through it.
Even with that at play, young women (i.e. under 40) STILL manage to earn more than men do per hour across all jobs. The pay gap is entirely contributed to by women older than 40, the oldest of whom, let's not forget, will have entered the job market when the Equal Pay Act itself was but a twinkle in Barbara Castle's eye. Having been held back in their early career paths by sexism, their CVs are too weak to promote them to executive levels and they are a lost cause.
The main driver of young women's higher pay, even though they do not go into the higher paying industries as much as men, is their greater and more successful participation in higher education. That began in the mid-1990s (hence the under 40 stat), when the first women who took GCSEs with a heavy coursework component filtered through, and that into a working environment 20 years out from equal pay which had become amenable to women. The secondary curriculum has thus been grotesquely and deliberately biased towards women, presumably as a quick medium-term fix for a number of equality of outcome metrics that became fashionable in the 1980s.
Although I would say your statement holds overall, note that among the professions there are more women in medicine and law, equal in accountancy; male dominance is restricted to engineering and IT. You are misrepresenting.
There are laws against sexual harassment and yet it's still pervasive and widespread. Feminism draws attention to it because you need a cultural change as well as a legal one.
This is correct although feminists/women do not understand harassers - and we need to understand them to combat them. They do it to intimidate, the same way as a weedy looking man I have been shouted at and intimidated in the street before. The sexual angle is only a superficial framing device. Gender does come into it in that women are seen as a "target class", whereas an aggressor can never be quite sure that a man can't fight back.
You're asking me how many Labour leaders have been women? Is that supposed to be some kind of cheap dig? How many did the Liberals have? 43% of Labour MPs are women (not that this is in any way relevant). All-women shortlists have been conclusively proven to put worthy, deserving candidates into the House. The fact that these people might not have got in otherwise shows gender discrimination.
I suspect that is more because it doesn't take much to perform well as an MP. I suspect what AWS really means in this regard is less need to know the right people, so sincere MPs not so corrupted by the party cliques are elevated and actually do the work.
Below, with my apologies, is a digression on my recent experience with Labour's gender meddling.
Having recently voted in the NEC election I was very unhappy that I was required to vote for three women out of six. What if they were all useless or horrible Blairites? But I was totally appalled that I was not required to vote for three men out of six. A vote for three women, or even six women, and no men would have fulfilled the criterion, but of course not the other way round.
Luckily, after weighing up the candidates on merit and not on the basis of any essential characteristics, it so happened that I had three women. But if there is anything that makes me want to defect from Labour it is this kind of nonsense.
Under this system if all candidates are equal you would expect 4.5 women and 1.5 men to be elected - and that's if everyone used all six votes.
Lo and behold, although there were 8 men and 7 women in the contest (although maybe we can count Mx Eddie Izzard as half of each?) 4 women and 2 men were returned. The bottom five places were all taken by men and the top three all by women. Women received 57.6% of the vote (8.2% per woman), men 42.4% (5.3% per man). The mean rank for women was 5.29, for men 10.38.
I know it's true that at least two of the men were hard Blairites and another totally useless, but still.
(edited 7 years ago)
What?? If you wanna call whatever you're doing the circle game, by all means. Think the evidence above speaks for itself so don't be acting like I'm crazy and seeing things that you didn't write. Gaslighting someone really only works if the proof doesn't exist which shows they aren't lying or seeing things 🙄
I sincerely doubt your comment about the patriarchy being edited out really changed the context so much so that now my point is proven in a way that it wasn't before.
I'll leave the irrelevant conversation you're having with someone else. Wouldn't want your comments to me to be taken out of context again
I'll leave the irrelevant conversation you're having with someone else. Wouldn't want your comments to me to be taken out of context again
Original post by Anonymous
I'm just curious as the guy I like identifies as a male feminist. It's not a criteria of mine or anything for a potential date to be a male feminist, in fact I'm not even feminist myself so I could not care less either way I just think he seems like a sweet person overall, which is what attracted me.
Anyhow, I'm very feminine in terms of appearance, dress sense and personality traits but he does not seem excited by that at all, if anything intimidated - but not in a good way.
I was raised with strong family ties and quite traditional values and he seems almost repulsed by. He has no father figure and has very liberal views on family and relationships.
The girls who he does notice are the ones who are quite butch in body type and appearance who are very outspoken (especially on feminist issues), blunt, competitive, domineering and who drink and sleep around like 'one of the guys'.
Perhaps I am narrow minded but I really can't wrap my head around it. What are your thoughts?
Anyhow, I'm very feminine in terms of appearance, dress sense and personality traits but he does not seem excited by that at all, if anything intimidated - but not in a good way.
I was raised with strong family ties and quite traditional values and he seems almost repulsed by. He has no father figure and has very liberal views on family and relationships.
The girls who he does notice are the ones who are quite butch in body type and appearance who are very outspoken (especially on feminist issues), blunt, competitive, domineering and who drink and sleep around like 'one of the guys'.
Perhaps I am narrow minded but I really can't wrap my head around it. What are your thoughts?
I think you're confusing a male feminist (i.e. respects women's rights) with someone who just isn't attracted to female characteristics. I don't understand how this dude claims to be a male feminist when he basically wants a masculine woman. That's not feminist, that's gay. What you've got there is someone who is sexually confused (probably because of lack of a father figure) and has basically got no chance with "competitive, domineering" girls who sleep around. Classic beta male doormat. I don't know why you're even entertaining the idea of going with him - he sounds like a loser.
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