Christians: concerning your water baptism

OP

To join / become a member of Jesus / His Church you need to actually receive His Spirit.

Original post by Grizwuld

Isn't this sacrament simply a joining or membership entry activity?

Sin comes later...

Reply 3

Original post by NJA

Do you believe that because you got baptised as a believer you are saved?

One is not delivered from the power of sin until they receive the Holy Spirit, which is a separate experience.

See Acts 8v12-16 and 19v1-6 for examples.

Note: it was known that these baptised believers had not yet received the Holy Spirit!

Baptism is the outward sign of having joined the church. If you are being baptized, you should have already made your first confession in prayer, which is the beginning of a process that never ends.

Ideally, someone baptized should be chrismated or confirmed by a bishop when they can, but what matters most is faith. That's the whole point. It's how you choose to act and what you choose to believe.

Reply 4

OP

In order to join "the church" of Jesus, people were told to repent, be baptised and receive the Holy Spirit (Acts 2v38).

Original post by Tootles

Baptism is the outward sign of having joined the church. If you are being baptized, you should have already made your first confession in prayer, which is the beginning of a process that never ends.

Ideally, someone baptized should be chrismated or confirmed by a bishop when they can, but what matters most is faith. That's the whole point. It's how you choose to act and what you choose to believe.

Reply 5

Yeshua saves

10

The local church I attend teaches that the Lord Jesus Christ commanded water baptism, and that water baptism is an outward profession of saving faith in the Lord Jesus Christ. They teach that water baptism should be done by immersion, and only baptise children when they profess faith in the Lord Jesus Christ (not infants).

I believe that it is the Lord Jesus Christ's blood that saves us from our sins.

During the last baptism at the church I attend, the words used included "in the Name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit".

(edited 10 months ago)

Reply 6

Original post by NJA

In order to join "the church" of Jesus, people were told to repent, be baptised and receive the Holy Spirit (Acts 2v38).

Which version are you reading? I went to the Greek and got:-

Peter said to them, 'repent and be baptized, all of you, in the name of Jesus Christ into the releasing of sins, and you will obtain the gift of the Holy Spirit...'

Then I checked the ESV to confirm I'd read it right:-

And Peter said to them, "Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit..."

And then the NJB:-

'You must repent, Peter answered, 'and every one of you must be baptised into the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit...'

It seems, here, that Peter wasn't telling them to receive the Holy Spirit (because you can't tell someone to be given a gift by another party), but telling them they would receive the Holy Spirit if they repent and are baptized. Remember, the Holy Spirit isn't (always) an inexorable force. Plenty of people can receive the Spirit and not realize it, and not do anything with it. Choosing to have faith makes you more open to discerning it and its will for you. Note also that maybe the repentence or the faith of those people who didn't receive the Spirit may not have been complete.

Reply 7

OP

Jesus also commanded to receive the Holy Spirit, and "you must be born again", which is the same thing.
The Spirit was not given until after Jesus returned to the Father (John 7v39, Acts 2v4, 33).

Water baptism is acknowledging that you are "dead in sin", it is a burial, accepting that he died for your sin, but as Jesus, you need to be reaised to new life by actually receiving the Holy Spirit, an experience clearly defined in scripture.
For example, when Peter was sent to the Gentiles . . .

"While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word. And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.
For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God.
Then answered Peter, Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptised, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?" (Acts 10:44-47)

Have you had the same experience?

Original post by Yeshua saves

I believe the local church I attend (non-denominational, evangelical) teaches that the Lord Jesus Christ commanded water baptism, and that water baptism is an outward profession of saving faith in the Lord Jesus Christ. I believe they teach that water baptism should be done by immersion.

I believe that it is the Lord Jesus Christ's crucifixion and resurrection that saves us from our sins.

During the last baptism at the church I attend, the words used included "in the Name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit".

Reply 8

Yeshua saves

10

Original post by NJA

Jesus also commanded to receive the Holy Spirit, and "you must be born again", which is the same thing.
The Spirit was not given until after Jesus returned to the Father (John 7v39, Acts 2v4, 33).

Water baptism is acknowledging that you are "dead in sin", it is a burial, accepting that he died for your sin, but as Jesus, you need to be reaised to new life by actually receiving the Holy Spirit, an experience clearly defined in scripture.
For example, when Peter was sent to the Gentiles . . .

"While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word. And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.
For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God.
Then answered Peter, Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptised, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?" (Acts 10:44-47)

Have you had the same experience?

I have asked for the forgiveness of my sins privately in prayer to God and asked Him to reconcile me to Him through the Lord Jesus Christ (although I am sure there are many sins I have committed that I may not be aware of).

I do believe that all true Christians have the Holy Ghost for the Bible says whoever has not received His Spirit is none of His.

The Bible states in 1 Corinthians 12 verse 3: "Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost. Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost."

(edited 5 years ago)

Reply 9

OP

I use the KJV, other versions may select different renderings of the greek or hebrew, some even put new interpretations on.
The best way to prove what a scripture means is to cross reference with other verses.

Until you actually receive the Holy Spirit you are "in the flesh", i.e. "in sin", the Spirit gives the new Life which is power over sin. Water baptism is (or should be) acknowledging you don't have the Spirit and you wish to "bury" that old existence because you know there is something much better available. In Acts 8v12-16 and 19v5-6 it was known that people had not yet received the Spirit even though they were baptised. When people in the New Testament received the Spirit it was known, they spoke in tongues.

Original post by Tootles

Which version are you reading? I went to the Greek and got:-

Then I checked the ESV to confirm I'd read it right:-

And then the NJB:-

It seems, here, that Peter wasn't telling them to receive the Holy Spirit (because you can't tell someone to be given a gift by another party), but telling them they would receive the Holy Spirit if they repent and are baptized. Remember, the Holy Spirit isn't (always) an inexorable force. Plenty of people can receive the Spirit and not realize it, and not do anything with it. Choosing to have faith makes you more open to discerning it and its will for you. Note also that maybe the repentence or the faith of those people who didn't receive the Spirit may not have been complete.

Reply 10

OP

You don't need to "hope" you have received the Spirit of God, Jesus says:

"I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; . . . At that day you shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you." John 14:17-20)

That day for them was Pentecost:

"And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance" (Acts 2v4)

Peter said:
"therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which you now see and hear. "

and:
"the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call." (v33)

. . that means you and me.

I recommend you pray, not doubting, wanting nothing more!
If you want I will pray for you.

Original post by Yeshua saves

I have asked for the forgiveness of my sins privately in prayer to God and asked Him to reconcile me to Him through the Lord Jesus Christ (although I am sure there are many sins I have committed that I may not be aware of).

I do hope I have received the Holy Ghost. I will admit that in the past I have wondered whether I have blasphemed the Holy Ghost. But I do believe that all true Christians have the Holy Ghost for the Bible says whoever has not received His Spirit is none of His.

Reply 11

Yeshua saves

10

Original post by NJA

You don't need to "hope" you have received the Spirit of God, Jesus says:

"I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; . . . At that day you shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you." John 14:17-20)

That day for them was Pentecost:

"And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance" (Acts 2v4)

Peter said:
"therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which you now see and hear. "

and:
"the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call." (v33)

. . that means you and me.

I recommend you pray, not doubting, wanting nothing more!
If you want I will pray for you.

Thank you for the Bible verses and for the suggestion to pray.

Reply 12

Original post by Yeshua saves

I believe the local church I attend (non-denominational, evangelical) teaches that the Lord Jesus Christ commanded water baptism, and that water baptism is an outward profession of saving faith in the Lord Jesus Christ. I believe they teach that water baptism should be done by immersion.

If it's evangelical, it isn't non-denominational. There is no such thing as a truly non-denominational church, as non-denominationalism is itself a denomination which presumes itself to be neutral. This is incorrect.

Baptism should be done by immersion. This is how the Gospels and the Epistles describe it being done, and how the Didache (the earliest known Christian instructional/devotional manual) says it should be done:-
7¹About baptism - baptize in this way: having first recited all these directions, baptize in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, in living water; ²but if don't have living water, baptize in other water, and if you can't baptize in cold, then in warm water; ³but if you have neither, pour water three times on the head, in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit.
(note, here, that "living" water refers to a river or brook; "other" water refers to a still pool like a large bath or - in our case - a baptistry)

I believe that it is the Lord Jesus Christ's crucifixion and resurrection that saves us from our sins.

It's far simpler than that. Christ's passion and death make us dead to sin. His raising back into life brings eternal and ever-refreshing life to those who accept it.

Original post by NJA

I use the KJV, other versions may select different renderings of the greek or hebrew, some even put new interpretations on.
The best way to prove what a scripture means is to cross reference with other verses.

The KJV is in agreement with what I said:-
Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
In general, however, the JKV is not the best translation. I would recommend the ESV or the NIV. They're both very accurate. New translations very seldom select different readings - they just word it more clearly for modern readers. Take it from someone who's read a lot of different translations of the Bible, as well as studying the original text :wink:

The best way to see what a scripture means is to read the original text, bearing in mind the context of the day where relevant. There are no two ways about that. Greek and Hebrew words often don't have direct cognates in English. The most notable example is how many different Greek words, with different meanings, get translated into English as "love". Most people can't do this, though, because it's impractical for most people to learn Greek. This being the case, you do a serious incourtesy in claiming that "other versions" of the Bible "may select different readings"; you are making a statement you are not qualified to make.

That aside, you'll notice that I did refer to two other translations as well as translating it myself. You are misreading the text. The Father sends the Spirit at the behest of the Son. The Spirit comes upon those in its own time. Prayer doesn't make this happen - who are we to command God? - it makes us ready.

Water baptism is (or should be) acknowledging you don't have the Spirit and you wish to "bury" that old existence because you know there is something much better available.

This has no basis in scripture or orthodox teaching/tradition. The water of baptism is the amniotic fluid of rebirth, and the start of the pilgrimage of Christian life.

In Acts 8v12-16 and 19v5-6 it was known that people had not yet received the Spirit even though they were baptised. When people in the New Testament received the Spirit it was known, they spoke in tongues.

Those two passages are describing confirmation. In 1 Cor. 12:7-11 St Paul tells how God gives the gifts of wisdom, knowledge, faith, healing, power to perform miracles, distinguishing spirits, speaking different languages, and interpreting them, according to his own judgment. You can't judge whether the Spirit has come on someone by the whether any one of these things is present or absent. To claim you can is blasphemy.

Reply 13

OP

There's a lady in our church who was allergic to water, she couldn't bathe.

She received the Spirit, used faith and got baptised, her allergy was gone!

Original post by Yeshua saves

Yes, but I believe the church I attend claims to be non-denominational in that they are not directed by an outside authority.

One thing I have wondered is what should be done if a person who professes faith in the Lord Jesus Christ desires to be water baptised but has a medical condition which means full or partial immersion could be impractical or dangerous?

Reply 14

OP

You are wrong:

Romans 6v4: "Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

Colossians 2v12: Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

The fact is that Jesus said that believers would speak in new tongues - Mark 16v17, also referred to in John 3v8 and the fact that a voice was heard when He was anointed, and nature bares witness, a baby cries as the first sign of life.
Tongues was used by the apostles as the sign of receiving the Spirit. Other attributes ... wisdom, knowledge faith etc were already seen and known so would not be the sign of the new arrangement.

Original post by Tootles

This has no basis in scripture or orthodox teaching/tradition. The water of baptism is the amniotic fluid of rebirth, and the start of the pilgrimage of Christian life.

Those two passages are describing confirmation. In 1 Cor. 12:7-11 St Paul tells how God gives the gifts of wisdom, knowledge, faith, healing, power to perform miracles, distinguishing spirits, speaking different languages, and interpreting them, according to his own judgment. You can't judge whether the Spirit has come on someone by the whether any one of these things is present or absent. To claim you can is blasphemy.

Reply 15

StrangeLilBean

11

I believe that I am saved because I believe and trust in Him.

My baptism was an outwards expression of this faith.

Reply 16

Grizwuld

19

Does the Holy Spirit go if you sin? Will he come again?

Reply 17

Original post by Yeshua saves

Yes, but I believe the church I attend claims to be non-denominational in that they are not directed by an outside authority.

One thing I have wondered is what should be done if a person who professes faith in the Lord Jesus Christ desires to be water baptised but has a medical condition which means full or partial immersion could be impractical or dangerous?

It still follows a specific theological school and set of traditions, and is thus a denomination. However, churches need direction from outside authorities. Nearly half of the New Testament is direction to churches that had gone astray - in ways, I might add, that many churches go astray now.

Original post by NJA

You are wrong:

Romans 6v4: "Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

Colossians 2v12: Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

The fact is that Jesus said that believers would speak in new tongues - Mark 16v17, also referred to in John 3v8 and the fact that a voice was heard when He was anointed, and nature bares witness, a baby cries as the first sign of life.
Tongues was used by the apostles as the sign of receiving the Spirit. Other attributes ... wisdom, knowledge faith etc were already seen and known so would not be the sign of the new arrangement.

Those quotes refer to our sinful nature being buried, along with our subscription to the first Adam as the archetype for humanity, and us being reborn into Christ as the second Adam - the archetype which is not a slave to sin. What you said (that baptism is an acknowledgement that we don't have the Spirit and that we know there is something better) does not have basis in scripture or orthodox tradition. Your quotes from St Paul are backing me up, not you.

Christ did not say that all the faithful would speak in "new tongues". Glossolalia is acknowledged throughout the NT as something which happens to some Christians, for a reason - for instance, the Apostles at the Cenacle at Pentecost spoke, not in "tongues" (as in unintelligible random syllables), but in the native languages of the foreign visitors, so that they could understand the Gospel in their own languages (Acts 2:5-11).

Christ said you need only have faith in him to receive salvation (Romans 3:22-26; Ephesians 1:13; and of course John 3:16). Your logic is contrary to that; you are suggesting that Christ skims off the best ones and rejects the rest, with the excuse that 'well, they didn't receive the Spirit.'

Furthermore, your dismissal of the other gifts of the Spirit on the grounds that they "were already seen and known" cannot stand. If you actually are dimissing those, then you are "picking and choosing" what of Scripture you believe. This is beyond blasphemy - it is heresy.

Original post by Grizwuld

Does the Holy Spirit go if you sin? Will he come again?

The Holy Spirit remains with us and convicts us of our sins, to bring us back into repentance (John 16:8).

Reply 18

OP

Jesus says believes "will" speak in new tongues, the only question is, when?
He certainly didn't say "some" as you say, in fact it is logically impossible that one can receive and not speak in tongues because if that were true they could not judge that speakers in tongues had just received the Spirit.

People displayed faith before they were judged to have received the Spirit too, and some got healed in various ways.
Your accusation that I am "dismissing" other attributes is nonsense, I affirm their continuation, all of them are present in the church I'm with, the "gifts" are the giving in the church of tehse attributes, as detailed in 1 Corinthians 14 where we read that there should be 2 or 3 gifts of tongues, each followed by an interpretation, 2 or 3 prophecies etc. Please answer honestly, when as the last time this happened in a meeting of your church?

Therefore, you cannot give even one example someone receiving the Holy Spirit but not speaking in tongues!

John 3v16 follows v8 where Jesus teaches:
"The wind blows (greek: the Spirit breathes) where it wills, and you hear the sound thereof, but cannot tell whence it comes, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit."

The apostles recognised tongues as the sign of being born again, for Jew and Gentile (Acts 10v44-48, 19v5-6), the gospel has not changed.

If you undetrstood what tongues is for you would realise why all God's children get the ability.
The problem is, modern "churches" preach a different, words-only "Jesus" to the one that the apostles preached so they cannot understand the things of the Spirit.

Original post by Tootles

Christ did not say that all the faithful would speak in "new tongues". Glossolalia is acknowledged throughout the NT as something which happens to some Christians, for a reason - for instance, the Apostles at the Cenacle at Pentecost spoke, not in "tongues" (as in unintelligible random syllables), but in the native languages of the foreign visitors, so that they could understand the Gospel in their own languages (Acts 2:5-11).

Christ said you need only have faith in him to receive salvation (Romans 3:22-26; Ephesians 1:13; and of course John 3:16). Your logic is contrary to that; you are suggesting that Christ skims off the best ones and rejects the rest, with the excuse that 'well, they didn't receive the Spirit.'

Furthermore, your dismissal of the other gifts of the Spirit on the grounds that they "were already seen and known" cannot stand. If you actually are dimissing those, then you are "picking and choosing" what of Scripture you believe. This is beyond blasphemy - it is heresy.

The Holy Spirit remains with us and convicts us of our sins, to bring us back into repentance (John 16:8).

Reply 19

OP