Is the Bartlett (UCL) really all that good?

Stewie2011

Just been briefly flicking back through some of the previous threads and came across one on the Bartlett entry task during which someone posted this up about the Bartlett.

"Re: Bartlett Assessment Task for 2011 entry!
no way... How old are you? Have you seen what the standard is at the Bartlett? Please see the YOUTUBE film:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AamieNPfvDY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0-M7b...eature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b8b5X...eature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OJf1C...eature=related

and all the other films on there about Bartlett Year 1.

They didn't learned this while there, they were able to draw already. sorry for giving you the bad news but i am not sure if this is up to the right level."

I got to say though that I could not particularly see anything particularly outstanding about any of them. I mean they are ok but considering this work is supposed to be from straight A students at what is often touted as one of the best Architecture Schools in the country I was expecting something a little more impressive.

For example,
The first link consists of basic looking cartoony style doodling which many a secondary school student may have done while bored in their science or maths class at school. The Architecture is where??? (plenty of good comments left though, don't see why)

The second link consists of a site visit, which is ok but consists of many photo's stuck onto A1 sheets with all too large gaps of white unused space in between. Nothing that excites here, although shes quite pretty.

The third link is all about a chair, again same format, large A1 sheets with stuck on photo's and large gaps of nothingness.

The fourth link is slightly better, but again nothing that great presentation wise and the project is ok but nothing dissimilar to what a lot of architecture students in their first year would turn out.

Not meaning to bitch on but I fail to see how the Bartlett is seen as one of the best schools as I don't think this work is particularly impressive. Now I know some interpret Architecture in the wider sense but unless I was doing a building I would be quite depressed if this was the sort of stuff I had to put up with doing (I know most Architecture schools have a bit of this). Is this really the way it is at the Bartlett, is there a lot of arty, non architectecture stuff? I heard that it is but was wondering what others make of all this. Just seems to me that there is a kind of self-fullfilling prophecy about it all. The Bartlett, AA, etc are said to be the best Architecture schools, so the grades are high to get in, so nearly everyone wants to goes there and because of the demand the are seen as the best, and so go on fuelling the cycle.

Some of the drawings people had done on that thread for entry were good though, but beyond that I just can't fathom it, what do you others on here think?

Reply 1

hockeyjoe

15

Original post by Stewie2011

Just been briefly flicking back through some of the previous threads and came across one on the Bartlett entry task during which someone posted this up about the Bartlett.

"Re: Bartlett Assessment Task for 2011 entry!
no way... How old are you? Have you seen what the standard is at the Bartlett? Please see the YOUTUBE film:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AamieNPfvDY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0-M7b...eature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b8b5X...eature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OJf1C...eature=related

and all the other films on there about Bartlett Year 1.

They didn't learned this while there, they were able to draw already. sorry for giving you the bad news but i am not sure if this is up to the right level."

I got to say though that I could not particularly see anything particularly outstanding about any of them. I mean they are ok but considering this work is supposed to be from straight A students at what is often touted as one of the best Architecture Schools in the country I was expecting something a little more impressive.

For example,
The first link consists of basic looking cartoony style doodling which many a secondary school student may have done while bored in their science or maths class at school. The Architecture is where??? (plenty of good comments left though, don't see why)

The second link consists of a site visit, which is ok but consists of many photo's stuck onto A1 sheets with all too large gaps of white unused space in between. Nothing that excites here, although shes quite pretty.

The third link is all about a chair, again same format, large A1 sheets with stuck on photo's and large gaps of nothingness.

The fourth link is slightly better, but again nothing that great presentation wise and the project is ok but nothing dissimilar to what a lot of architecture students in their first year would turn out.

Not meaning to bitch on but I fail to see how the Bartlett is seen as one of the best schools as I don't think this work is particularly impressive. Now I know some interpret Architecture in the wider sense but unless I was doing a building I would be quite depressed if this was the sort of stuff I had to put up with doing (I know most Architecture schools have a bit of this). Is this really the way it is at the Bartlett, is there a lot of arty, non architectecture stuff? I heard that it is but was wondering what others make of all this. Just seems to me that there is a kind of self-fullfilling prophecy about it all. The Bartlett, AA, etc are said to be the best Architecture schools, so the grades are high to get in, so nearly everyone wants to goes there and because of the demand the are seen as the best, and so go on fuelling the cycle.

Some of the drawings people had done on that thread for entry were good though, but beyond that I just can't fathom it, what do you others on here think?

okay first things first only the first link works, second how can you judge a whole department based on some drawings from first year undergrads? The bartlett isn't an art school, and the first video is clearly meant for entertainment value anyway, i don't see your reasoning here

Reply 2

Stewie2011

OP

12

Sorry, the links work ok in the original thread (page 2 on here) but for some reason don't work when I copied them on this thread, so you can check them out there entitled, 'Bartlett Assessment Task for 2011 entry'. I do think though that we should base the department on this work as they are supposed to be from straight A students and the member that gave us the original links seems to to have thought they were something to be in awe of. Check out all the links on that thread and it will show more clearly what I mean, I think.

Reply 3

Ex Death

9

Original post by Stewie2011

I got to say though that I could not particularly see anything particularly outstanding about any of them. I mean they are ok but considering this work is supposed to be from straight A students at what is often touted as one of the best Architecture Schools in the country I was expecting something a little more impressive.

For example,
The first link consists of basic looking cartoony style doodling which many a secondary school student may have done while bored in their science or maths class at school. The Architecture is where??? (plenty of good comments left though, don't see why)

The second link consists of a site visit, which is ok but consists of many photo's stuck onto A1 sheets with all too large gaps of white unused space in between. Nothing that excites here, although shes quite pretty.

The third link is all about a chair, again same format, large A1 sheets with stuck on photo's and large gaps of nothingness.

The fourth link is slightly better, but again nothing that great presentation wise and the project is ok but nothing dissimilar to what a lot of architecture students in their first year would turn out.

Not meaning to bitch on but I fail to see how the Bartlett is seen as one of the best schools as I don't think this work is particularly impressive. Now I know some interpret Architecture in the wider sense but unless I was doing a building I would be quite depressed if this was the sort of stuff I had to put up with doing (I know most Architecture schools have a bit of this). Is this really the way it is at the Bartlett, is there a lot of arty, non architectecture stuff? I heard that it is but was wondering what others make of all this. Just seems to me that there is a kind of self-fullfilling prophecy about it all. The Bartlett, AA, etc are said to be the best Architecture schools, so the grades are high to get in, so nearly everyone wants to goes there and because of the demand the are seen as the best, and so go on fuelling the cycle.

Some of the drawings people had done on that thread for entry were good though, but beyond that I just can't fathom it, what do you others on here think?

1. The first link was not supposed to be a fantastic piece of work. In fact, it was deliberately made to be messy. It was just made for the exhibition.

2. You're looking at every sheet as if it is supposed to be a fantastic work of art when in actual fact most of the sheets you see are merely trying to convey a part of a project ie. communicate information. Photos stuck onto A1 sheets with lots of white space? Seriously? White space is not a bad thing. One of the biggest mistakes A level students make in presenting their work is their general mentality of cramming as much **** as possible on a sheet to give the impression that they've 'done a lot of work'. This generally looks atrocious.

3. The Bartlett is renowned for producing technically fantastic drawings (notice I say drawings here, not projects), far better than any other architecture school. If your standard is that good then give yourself a pat on the back (although I highly doubt the stuff you've seen in those videos are the best from the school or even first year)

Reply 4

Stewie2011

OP

12

1.They used that work in their exhibition! OMG surely the exhibition should display the best work, 'deliberately messy' is that how that wanted to explain it away, I don't think that quite stands up.

2.Sure, you don't have to fill up the whole page, like you suggest it is often better not to but here there is far too much white space on many of the sheets. Can't say I agree that every sheet should'n t be a work of art, I think it should and I recall someone from Westminster on here telling us that what's they are told to aim to do. Coming from the Bartlett and being a straight A student I don't see any reason for any less here.

3.Even if this is not there best work I can't see how op would hold it up as the 'standard' it all seems very ordinary which even if not the best work for somewhere that claims to be the best is not good. Sure I've seen some of there better stuff but nothing that most of the other Architecture schools don't knock out from time to time more often depending on the students they have, than the school they are in. Often its the odd good art piece here and there, but like I say considering they are supposed to be one of the best and have straight A students it looks somewhat overated.

Reply 5

KeyserNI

8

Depends on your point of view when it comes to architectural education.

Reply 6

Ex Death

9

Original post by Stewie2011

1.They used that work in their exhibition! OMG surely the exhibition should display the best work, 'deliberately messy' is that how that wanted to explain it away, I don't think that quite stands up.

'Deliberately messy' is how I am explaining it. One thing that you need to grasp is that messy is not synonymous with bad. That video was supposed to be a semi-humorous take on the workings of an architecture student.

2.Sure, you don't have to fill up the whole page, like you suggest it is often better not to but here there is far too much white space on many of the sheets. Can't say I agree that every sheet should'n t be a work of art, I think it should and I recall someone from Westminster on here telling us that what's they are told to aim to do. Coming from the Bartlett and being a straight A student I don't see any reason for any less here.

There is nothing wrong with a lot of white space. Bartlett students probably produce more works of art than any other school per project. They also tend to produce a large number of sheets per project. Should every sheet be a work of art in light of this? I think not. They already deprive themselves of enough sleep I should think. Also, I don't really care what Westminster students are told to do. There will rarely be a project where every single page is a work of art.

3.Even if this is not there best work I can't see how op would hold it up as the 'standard' it all seems very ordinary which even if not the best work for somewhere that claims to be the best is not good. Sure I've seen some of there better stuff but nothing that most of the other Architecture schools don't knock out from time to time more often depending on the students they have, than the school they are in. Often its the odd good art piece here and there, but like I say considering they are supposed to be one of the best and have straight A students it looks somewhat overated.

Have you seen the exhibition at the Bartlett? The quality of the drawings are far better than any other architecture school's. The projects are generally pretty nonsensical but the drawings are undoubtedly the best out there so I don't know what you're on about, quite frankly.

Reply 7

Stewie2011

OP

12

Ex - Death, at no point is a lot of white space a good thing, it signifies most importantly poor presentation and a lack of thought concerning how to present the work, particularly if done repeatedly in a project. I think that this is the case in the project here as the presentation method and layout is rather repetative and lacking in thought. I believe that most people in the Architecture profession would agree with me on that point, always a case of quality rather than quantity I think.

...and yes messy drawing is bad drawing, I mean ask yourself is that to say it is a good drawing, clearly not, the drawing is just poor quality you would need your eyes tested not to realise that.

(edited 12 years ago)

Reply 8

KeyserNI

8

Original post by Stewie2011

Ex - Death, at no point is a lot of white space a good thing, it signifies most importantly poor presentation and a lack of thought concerning how to present the work, particularly if done repeatedly in a project. I think that this is the case in the project here as the presentation method and layout is rather repetative and lacking in thought. I believe that most people in the Architecture profession would agree with me on that point, always a case of quality rather than quantity I think.

...and yes messy drawing is bad drawing, I mean ask yourself is that to say it is a good drawing, clearly not, the drawing is just poor quality you would need your eyes tested not to realise that.

Obviously the majority of the UK architecture profession don't agree with you as they regularly vote the Bartlett the top school in the UK. Only a few things they can base that on, namely the work they see and the students they meet. The work you are basing your judgement on is first year work, it isn't supposed to be perfect in fact in terms of what it's meant to get across it's aims are quite different than say that of a final degree project.

Reply 9

Ex Death

9

Original post by Stewie2011

Ex - Death, at no point is a lot of white space a good thing, it signifies most importantly poor presentation and a lack of thought concerning how to present the work, particularly if done repeatedly in a project.

No it doesn't. White space allows drawings/images/whatever to be seen clearly and without clutter. It looks neat and professional. Any decent graphic designer will testify to this. I'm sorry but you have no idea what you're talking about.

I believe that most people in the Architecture profession would agree with me on that point, always a case of quality rather than quantity I think.

No they wouldn't. Take a look at some semi reputable practice's websites. You will generally see plenty of white/empty space.

...and yes messy drawing is bad drawing, I mean ask yourself is that to say it is a good drawing, clearly not, the drawing is just poor quality you would need your eyes tested not to realise that.

Again, you have no idea what you're talking about. A sketch is usually a messy drawing. You're saying that sketches are bad drawings? Are you an A Level student? You might just be in for a shock if you're about to start an architecture course because you honestly haven't got a clue.

Reply 10

Stewie2011

OP

12

No, I am not an A-Level student, we are talking about a lot of white space here, far too much for the A1 size sheet, I do not think that you know what you are talking about. Are you honestly telling me that this work is what we should expect from a straight A student from a school that promotes themselves as one of the best architecture schools, any student could knock that standard of work out, its mediocre at best. A small amount of white space allows images to be seen clearly, a large amount just looks lazy and under used. A website is a different media and in any case is rarely displayed A1 size, so is a different matter entirely. Some sketches are bad drawings where they have been hastily done as in this case, and no sketches are not supposed to be messy drawings. In any case the main point, is this work of a standard we should be in awe of like the op, I don't think so. Should the Bartlett be letting students get away with this standard of work (or lack of it), I don't think so. Should the Bartlett be viewed as one of the best Schools when this is an example of the work they let their students produce, I think not.

Reply 11

yeahyeahyeahs

16

is this op kidding me?

The standard of drawings from the bartlett is the most impressive I have seen from any architecture school in the UK. Its hard to make a technical drawing seem artist and interesting then just a bunch of lines with various line weights.

Drawings can be messy, look at Carlo Spara.

Reply 12

Andeh_

Open space is good, let your drawings breeeeaathe!

Bartlett produce wonderful drawings, though I'm not a massive fan of their overall approach.

But then, some would argue that all undergrad is just learning to design, sketch, make things nice. There'll be plenty of tectonics/structures in post grad to fill the gaps.

Reply 13

reviresco

9

Original post by Stewie2011

Not meaning to bitch on but I fail to see how the Bartlett is seen as one of the best schools as I don't think this work is particularly impressive. Now I know some interpret Architecture in the wider sense but unless I was doing a building I would be quite depressed if this was the sort of stuff I had to put up with doing (I know most Architecture schools have a bit of this). Is this really the way it is at the Bartlett, is there a lot of arty, non architectecture stuff? I heard that it is but was wondering what others make of all this. Just seems to me that there is a kind of self-fullfilling prophecy about it all. The Bartlett, AA, etc are said to be the best Architecture schools, so the grades are high to get in, so nearly everyone wants to goes there and because of the demand the are seen as the best, and so go on fuelling the cycle.
/QUOTE]

What i think is that you have a fundamentally flawed idea of what contemporary architectural education entails, and should perhaps start an undergraduate degree in the subject before making such blasé assertions. Is the Bartlett arguably one of the best places to study architecture in the UK - yes. You know that, that's why you are asking the question...what you have failed to do is engage with the evidence that supports that reputation in anyway other than to lambaste a handful (of, in my opinion, fairly impressive) videos of first year work.

Reply 14

Stewie2011

OP

12

Excuse me but in video's two & three she has just cut & pasted photos on all of her sheets, that must have taken all of 5 minutes to do. I think we can all do that, I mean its not going to be an all nighter is it? I have already started an undergraduate degree in which we were told that while you don't have to fill up the page you should'nt have vast area's of emptyness which seems sound to me. I just think there is just too much of the Emperor's clothes with the Bartlett.

Reply 15

GormlessWonder

9

I get the feeling we're being trolled by OP.

Reply 16

waecskt

Anybody else think that OP may have been rejected by UCL?

Reply 17

Aston_lovers

The Bartlett's degree in Architecture should be called BA Graphic Design or illustration as it seems to me that is all that they are good at!.

Architecture of an architect - does not happen here.

The kids at the bartlett are a bunch of illustrators and graphic design kids who's parents wanted them to be in a proper job, so poor architecture has to fill the gap... and now we are stuck with never ending fantasy factories..

Reply 18

Archi96

5

Original post by Aston_lovers

The Bartlett's degree in Architecture should be called BA Graphic Design or illustration as it seems to me that is all that they are good at!.

Architecture of an architect - does not happen here.

The kids at the bartlett are a bunch of illustrators and graphic design kids who's parents wanted them to be in a proper job, so poor architecture has to fill the gap... and now we are stuck with never ending fantasy factories..

I'm sorry you got rejected. You can always reapply next year.

Reply 19

Aston_lovers

I like your humour, actually it was my girlfriend who got rejected!
I just dont understand it, she is fantastic her portfolio was brilliant, she is a natural architect, no hipe, just true brilliance, you know Im in product design just graduated, I have a great job working with Conran, worked to a medium strength, she on the other hand worked so hard, way way harder than me! and she is better! I was in shock, and was like ..yeah well their all the same kids who tick the boxes dont question what the hell their doing, the rendering is outdated, at first I was like this stuff looks so cool all these renderings, but wait a minute its BULL****E..I hope that they start getting some decent students who actually change the world,change that department make it REAL, action these kids are zombies all over the country trying to steal this outdated style. If you get in to the bartlett, have a great time but dont take it for granted...have fun time but remember the people who should have got in... I love you guys no mean intention to no one.

Is the Bartlett (UCL) really all that good?

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