How to be attractive (all of TSR should read this)

PUA books are definitely not the best way to develop social skills. I agree that they contain some useful info (e.g. how to become more confident), but the problem is that the other stuff they suggest (at least what I've read) will still mess up your social skills.

As said before, there are some great books on socialising and improving your confidence. PUA books are not one of them. It is noteworthy that they never sell themselves as "how to improve your social skills with people," but rather "how to pull 10000 hotties."

Examples of BS advice I have seen in those books:

-it retards your attitude towards the opposite sex by encouraging guys to basically show no respect towards women and banging on about evo psych, how women are "wired to" think etc. (For why evo psych is completely flawed as science, Google it). Not only will this affect the girls you're trying to hit on, but also your female friends generally. I've known guy acquaintances who tried PUA stuff, and I no longer hang out with them 'cause they're obnoxious little creeps with the weirdest attitude towards women.

-it retards your attitude towards the same sex by encouraging you to think of yourself (and other guys) as a failure if you get turned down by women, and peddling some weird myth of "high value males" who get all the women and apparently you should try to pretend you are. I can guarantee you that, if you're not generally considered successful or attractive, a PUA book won't help matters

-The two above alone will turn you into a social misfit if you listen to them

-"with the right effort/being pushy enough, you can have almost any girl you want" - no, you can't, even if you were really "attractive" by almost any measure. A lot of these books seem to suggest that even an unattractive with bad social skills (which reading a PUA book won't bolster much due to above reasons) and no social life can get dates with really attractive girls regularly if he tries, which quite frankly is deluding yourself

-Confidence in social situations is good, but the kind of stuff these guys peddle (stuff like trying to destroy a girl's self-esteem/touching her when it's not wanted/getting off with her friends in front of her) is obvious to anyone with half a brain, and will make you appear like a creep and weirdo

-"If you have no self-esteem or confidence and you tremble like a leaf even when a girl is sitting next to you" - then you need to fix the actual root of the problem, maybe you don't know where you're going in life or more likely you have zero social skills. Nowhere did I say exercise was the only solution. Treating women like crap and adopting a weird attitude towards them won't solve this problem.

Hmmm.

As far as I know these guys really did pull very large numbers of attractive women using these very techniques.

There is actually one guy-whether he was a PUA or not,Im not sure, who

gives excellent advice on how to attract women and Im going to try to

remember his name as I think he may be of help to guys like miser.

You've got to see that from a marketing perspective, "How to Miraculously and Easily Pull Unlimited Stunners" is gonna sell better than a realistic title.

I agree it can cause misogyny by viewing sexual interaction as a game and a science, but if you're not a dick in the first place you should be alright.

The thing is, most guys reading will have low confidence, so realising most guys don't know what they're doing is a nice, confidence boosting realisation.

Some PUA advice is actually quite similar to what you're saying, just more detailed. There's something called "newbie drills" where you have to go out and approach loads of women. That's it, you don't judge it by getting numbers, just keep approaching, talking, socialising, until it's second nature.

Well, of course they'd say that, it's not like they're not trying to sell a book or anything...

PUA books are definitely not the best way to develop social skills. I agree that they contain some useful info (e.g. how to become more confident), but the problem is that the other stuff they suggest (at least what I've read) will still mess up your social skills.

I'd like to point out that I'm not defending PUA as a method of having great relationships with a girl, but it is definitely peronality development and to some extent develops your social skills as well. However, you have to understand that PUA methods are not universal. There many different schools of thought with their own method. Direct vs Indirect, Natural vs Canned, etc. In "The Game", Neil Strauss uses largely indirect canned from what i hear anyway. Not all PUAs do this. Some people are just told to appraoch as many attractive looking women without having anything prepared and socialise with them in a fun way, whilst being conscious of their body language and tonality, teasing them and making excuses to touch them. Nothing creepy about that

As said before, there are some great books on socialising and improving your confidence. PUA books are not one of them. It is noteworthy that they never sell themselves as "how to improve your social skills with people," but rather "how to pull 10000 hotties."

PUA books aren't designed to improve your social skills, they're directly designed to make you a more attractive individual who is succesful with women. Which is basically the ultimate aim if you're reading books on improving your social skills for girls

Examples of BS advice I have seen in those books:

-it retards your attitude towards the opposite sex by encouraging guys to basically show no respect towards women and banging on about evo psych, how women are "wired to" think etc. (For why evo psych is completely flawed as science, Google it). Not only will this affect the girls you're trying to hit on, but also your female friends generally. I've known guy acquaintances who tried PUA stuff, and I no longer hang out with them 'cause they're obnoxious little creeps with the weirdest attitude towards women.

This depends completely on your outlook of it. Some people end up being creeps, others just incredibly smooth. If you see them as creeps, they're game probably isn't that good still

-it retards your attitude towards the same sex by encouraging you to think of yourself (and other guys) as a failure if you get turned down by women, and peddling some weird myth of "high value males" who get all the women and apparently you should try to pretend you are. I can guarantee you that, if you're not generally considered successful or attractive, a PUA book won't help matters

The first underlined bit shows your lack of understand of what PUA is. You are NEVER encouraged to think of yourself as a failure for being turned down. If you get turned down you are encouraged to not think twice about it and approach the next girl, simple as that. The second underlined is also incorrect, you are not supposed to pretend, you are supposed to become high value individual. Some people say fake it til you make it, which is actually a perfectly legitimate way of gainig confidence. Eventually you will actually become confident because you keep behaving like it. You should probably try it some time if you don't believe me. Third underlined bit, well that's just wrong because so many people who have done it have come out better.

-The two above alone will turn you into a social misfit if you listen to them

-"with the right effort/being pushy enough, you can have almost any girl you want" - no, you can't, even if you were really "attractive" by almost any measure. A lot of these books seem to suggest that even an unattractive with bad social skills (which reading a PUA book won't bolster much due to above reasons) and no social life can get dates with really attractive girls regularly if he tries, which quite frankly is deluding yourself

I have never heard of anyone suggesting that. In fact one thing they have is "lifestyle engineering" where you create an exciting lifestyle

-Confidence in social situations is good, but the kind of stuff these guys peddle (stuff like trying to destroy a girl's self-esteem/touching her when it's not wanted/getting off with her friends in front of her) is obvious to anyone with half a brain, and will make you appear like a creep and weirdo

There are some "dark" stuff, yes, but who says you have to do it?

-"If you have no self-esteem or confidence and you tremble like a leaf even when a girl is sitting next to you" - then you need to fix the actual root of the problem, maybe you don't know where you're going in life or more likely you have zero social skills. Nowhere did I say exercise was the only solution. Treating women like crap and adopting a weird attitude towards them won't solve this problem.

I'm trying to figure out what the problem is here, is it just that you're introverted? Or that you lack confidence? Maybe you'd actually get on better with introverts (just as I get on better with extroverts because I am one)

Also, what makes you label yourself bad at it? And why are you not saying it feels natural? Just because it doesn't feel natural doesn't mean you're being awkward or others see you as such. You might be shooting yourself in the foot a bit by seeing a problem that isn't there or much of a problem at all?

As said before, I think reading general books on socialising can help. It just shouldn't be the only thing you do. I guarantee spending 10% of that time putting oneself out there instead would yield better results.

PUA books are definitely not the best way to develop social skills. I agree that they contain some useful info (e.g. how to become more confident), but the problem is that the other stuff they suggest (at least what I've read) will still mess up your social skills.

As said before, there are some great books on socialising and improving your confidence. PUA books are not one of them. It is noteworthy that they never sell themselves as "how to improve your social skills with people," but rather "how to pull 10000 hotties." That's obviously a marketing ploy more than anything. Guys will be more lured to a book if it is advertised to teach them how to attract women, Plus, it's not really for girls because what attracts men and what attracts women are usually quire different, hence why they're both attracted to each other (generally speaking that is)


Examples of BS advice I have seen in those books:

-it retards your attitude towards the opposite sex by encouraging guys to basically show no respect towards women and banging on about evo psych, how women are "wired to" think etc. (For why evo psych is completely flawed as science, Google it). Not only will this affect the girls you're trying to hit on, but also your female friends generally. I've known guy acquaintances who tried PUA stuff, and I no longer hang out with them 'cause they're obnoxious little creeps with the weirdest attitude towards women.

-These books have generalisations for a reason and that's because they're generally true. Women subconsciously have various attributes that attract them to men, and of these attributes, women value some more than others. It's hardly saying all girls are the same. It's saying that girls have certain things that attract them to a guy, and each girl is slightly different in what attracts them

-it retards your attitude towards the same sex by encouraging you to think of yourself (and other guys) as a failure if you get turned down by women, and peddling some weird myth of "high value males" who get all the women and apparently you should try to pretend you are. I can guarantee you that, if you're not generally considered successful or attractive, a PUA book won't help matters

-again you seem to have limited yourself to reading the game, which is just one man's journey. It doesn't encourage you to think of yourself as a failure. These guys who go to these books see it as some sort of last resort. By having this ideal of a "high-value male", these guys have an end-goal or something to work towards. It's a flexible model, not a rigid example. There's no ideal man but the encouragement is to be your best self and part of this is through learning how to talk to girls. If you've read enough of these "seduction" books, you'd know that there is an encouragement to not only talk to more girls, but to start working out, sort out your career etc so that it all falls into place because if you only improve your "game" you can only get so far on that alone.

-The two above alone will turn you into a social misfit if you listen to them

-"with the right effort/being pushy enough, you can have almost any girl you want" - no, you can't, even if you were really "attractive" by almost any measure. A lot of these books seem to suggest that even an unattractive with bad social skills (which reading a PUA book won't bolster much due to above reasons) and no social life can get dates with really attractive girls regularly if he tries, which quite frankly is deluding yourself.
-No these books don't say you can get any girl you want. That would be most definitely a lie. The books can help you improve your success rate drastically if used properly. It's not about getting any girl you want, it's more of being able to attract girls that in the past may have been unattainable to that person due to them exhibiting several unattractive traits. The books (if you've read enough) accept the fact that getting better with women takes quite a while and can be a painful process. And yes, you do need to try unless that's the only way it's going to happen. Reading the book alone won't help. Going out month after month, making mistakes and fine-tuning what you've learnt will help you get to where you want to be. Very few legitimate books guarantee instant success as you're suggesting .

-Confidence in social situations is good, but the kind of stuff these guys peddle (stuff like trying to destroy a girl's self-esteem/touching her when it's not wanted/getting off with her friends in front of her) is obvious to anyone with half a brain, and will make you appear like a creep and weirdo
Again, if you've read recent books, there is nothing there that implies that you should destroy a girl's self esteem if read properly. What is being said is that sometimes when you meet women in certain venues like a nightclub, they may have over-inflated egos like celebrities. To get past this ego and to to actually get her to open up to you, there are certain things that help her let her guard down. This "negging" thing is out-dated and most that is encouraged today is teasing (in a light-hearted funny way) and just general banter. These books do not encourage unnecessary touching either (only when a guy is afraid to touch girls so he can de-sensitise the anxiety at first). They only encourage you to be smooth with it (go from lightly touching her arm in conversation , to hugging, touching her hair to kissing etc obviously with her compliance and reading the signals correctly). Lastly, there is nothing about getting with her friends. What is said is that you should talk to her friends more to get her a little jealous if you may be giving her too much attention rather than the group as a whole

-"If you have no self-esteem or confidence and you tremble like a leaf even when a girl is sitting next to you" - then you need to fix the actual root of the problem, maybe you don't know where you're going in life or more likely you have zero social skills. Nowhere did I say exercise was the only solution. Treating women like crap and adopting a weird attitude towards them won't solve this problem. Truth is quite a few guys are quite confident out-going people who have their life in good stead except for a good relation with women. The only thing that will help them is to get talking to girls. These books do not encourage you to treat women like crap and while you may say it warp their opinion on women, these guys already have a warped view of women. The books help to bridge the gap so they can genuinely enjoy the company of women through picking up a few social skills. Yes, they may use one or two scripted lines, but the end goal is that through their life experiences and how they present themselves they can genuinely connect with women in a socially intuitive manner

I understand your disdain towards the community, but it seems as though you haven't read enough in depth about this. Some things you mentioned are considered weird by modern "seduction experts". Things like peacocking (wearing some weird-ass stuff), negging have been removed from most current books because they've been used wrongly. If you delved more into this material (which may not appeal to you understandably), you might understand that these books aim to give guys a stepping stone to get good with women through keeping yourself occupied, while also being a genuinely likeable and respected person among both men and women. There isn't a quick fix and normally these guys who are committed to improving their love life often find that other parts of their life are fitting together. This process takes up a few years and is certainly not an easy solution. If anything, it's probably one of the hardest things considering there will be periods of frustration and stunted progress. I hope my post has helped you see things from the other side rather than a disgruntled female who has been approached by a creepy-weird PUA which many of them can be (misuse of information)

And how exactly do you suggest you fix that? Therapy? Sure if you have plenty of money to throw left, right and centre and even then it'll take a damn long time, going through previous life experiences as a kid, etc, etc. See what you're saying looks good on paper, but unfortunately it's not practical. You say you must do certain things, but you don't suggest how and there's the problem. What you're proposing isn't a solution, henceforth someone who has these problems won't gain anything from this kind of vague advice. Confronting your fears WILL help you overcome them. If you have a fear of rejection and you're forced to approach 50 girls and they all reject you, you won't be half as petrified of rejection as you were 50 approaches ago. Practise makes improvement. It's a clear, straightforward solution and that's why it works.

Hmmm.

As far as I know these guys really did pull very large numbers of attractive women using these very techniques.

There is actually one guy-whether he was a PUA or not,Im not sure, who

gives excellent advice on how to attract women and Im going to try to

remember his name as I think he may be of help to guys like miser.

Oh lawdy not sheriff serious.

Plz read first page.

Plz.

Becoming an individual who's actually of worth, as opposed to pretending that you're that way which is the only alternative, is impractical? How just how?

You don't need therapy to develop good social skills. Or become at least moderately physically attractive.

There's some dark stuff but no one says you have to do it? Doesn't make any difference, it's still in the book and some gullible chump will probably swallow it in the hope of pulling more.

The point is not solely "whether you're seen as a creep". It's that seeing a woman as an object out of 10 whose "evolutionary buttons" you can push or whatever probably isn't going to help your ability to socialise with them much. Yes - be more confident and all that. No - don't swallow this kind of BS. (Again, Google evo psych and why it's nonsense).

no misc reference but aware

I was pointing out how stupid the post I quoted was. She said that it shouldn't be people's goal in life to be attractive to the opposite sex and then went on to say that OP (you) shouldn't tell people how to live their lives.

You're missing my point.

Yes, there are some attributes which are considered more attractive and PUA books may mention. Confidence, good social skills, looks, living an interesting life - in short, everything I've listed on the first page. You do not need to "mind game" people in order to be considered more attractive. In fact, trying to manipulate people is downright weird. Seeing one whole sex as something whose "ego you have to get past" and other bull crap is weird. That is why I am saying it will ruin your social skills.

No, a PUA book does not teach you anything particularly special about those without also covering it in a ton of crap. Even just the fact it's based on evo psych alone should be enough. It is like selling a fat loss pill that claims to help you lose an amazing amount of weight in a short amount of time, and then basing it on a "genetic theory" that isn't really based in science at all.

I don't have to read every single book to call BS when I see it. Nor do I feel the need to waste my valuable time going through such nonsense.

Don't bother replying. Blocking for sheer stupidity.

If I was to describe it in a nutshell, I'd say that when I feel like being talkative I don't know what to say.

I don't think I'm awkward - I'm just quieter than I'd like to be.

Yep, I agree. I'm pretty engaged socially - I'm out of the house and socialising (outside of work) five days a week due to club commitments.

I don't mean to sound like I'm looking for advice, I was only saying that it is not as simple as deciding to work on it and seeing the results. Even though being social I agree is the best way (but can be complimented with books and things), it's still not necessarily a particularly efficacious method and can take a lot of dedication just to reach 'average'.

Collette94 after reading your first post, I kind of agree with you to some extent, thought you seem to give instructions rahter than advice. But this quotation above disturbs be a little bit. Many people are introverts, and like being by themselves a lot. That's extremely common. But just because you find it a bit uncomfortable meeting new people, doesn't mean they don't deserve a partner. That's wrong in so many aspects. I'm not agressive saying this, thought I'd let you know since it's easy to misunderstand in written language... But I just had to point this out, because other than that, your advice are good.

I'm not saying you're advice is bad because it's not, it's good advice but I have a decent personality, I have interesting hobbies and interest and I socialise quite a lot and have good social skills.Yet despite having lot of friends, as far as I'm aware, no guys find me that attractive. It's not as easy as 'if you're like this, people will find you attractive.'

See, for some people you're *always* going to be improving, and especially in some cases it will never feel natural and you'll always feel uncomfortable but force yourself to go through with it. The OP is actually giving very good advice in that regard; there's no easy/cheat route and you have to put yourself out there and make yourself to interact with others [as you know, but some don't.] It's certainly better than being alone.