Labour discussing plans to include trans women on women only shortlists

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Davij038
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#1
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#1
https://www.theguardian.com/commenti...rtlists-labour

I personally disagree: it’s the current year, why are they not having trans only shortlists as well?

Trans and gender fluid people represent the best of the Labour Party, people like Eddie Izzard Among others are exactly the sort of forward thinking candidates that this country needs to move the Labour Party forward.
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ChaoticButterfly
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#2
(Original post by Davij038)

people like Eddie Izzard Among others are exactly the sort of forward thinking candidates that this country needs to move the Labour Party forward.
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Trinculo
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This kind of thing is exactly the problem when you have several groups of protest all converging under one general banner (i.e. the liberal left). There are completely incompatible values with no middle ground.

By far and away the biggest problem is not so much the values or wishes of transgender people, but that LGBT+ and feminism have almost nothing to do with one another and are also internally incoherent. LGB is one thing. Trans is another, "+" makes everything a nightmare for everyone, and the concept of Trans and "+" are completely at odds with the values of feminism.

What is the point of fighting for womens rights if any man can simply say that he is a woman?

If you have all-women shortlists that can have men on it.......
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ChaoticButterfly
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(Original post by Trinculo)
This kind of thing is exactly the problem when you have several groups of protest all converging under one general banner (i.e. the liberal left). There are completely incompatible values with no middle ground.

By far and away the biggest problem is not so much the values or wishes of transgender people, but that LGBT+ and feminism have almost nothing to do with one another and are also internally incoherent. LGB is one thing. Trans is another, "+" makes everything a nightmare for everyone, and the concept of Trans and "+" are completely at odds with the values of feminism.

What is the point of fighting for womens rights if any man can simply say that he is a woman?

If you have all-women shortlists that can have men on it.......
Other countires already do this stuff and it doesn't cause any problems.

Just like with the gay laws, poeple of the future will look back on all of this and wonder just exactly all the fuss was about.
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Davij038
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(Original post by ChaoticButterfly)
Other countires already do this stuff and it doesn't cause any problems.
What stuff? What countries?

Just like with the gay laws, poeple of the future will look back on all of this and wonder just exactly all the fuss was about.
How do you know what people of the future will think?

Attitudes towards societal issues such as homosexuality have varied greatly over time.
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So-Sarah
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#6
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#6
(Original post by Davij038)

Trans and gender fluid people represent the best of the Labour Party, people like Eddie Izzard Among others are exactly the sort of forward thinking candidates that this country needs to move the Labour Party forward.
LMAO - it's idiots like Izzard and your comments that make Labour the current laughing stock of the nation!
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So-Sarah
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sure, let's just have men joining the women's cricket/football teams for donning a skirt
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Trinculo
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(Original post by ChaoticButterfly)
Other countires already do this stuff and it doesn't cause any problems.

Just like with the gay laws, poeple of the future will look back on all of this and wonder just exactly all the fuss was about.
I find it much more likely that people will look back on this short period of time and think of us as utter morons for the social ideas we let take hold.

I find it wholly unlikely that 75 years from now people will think that we were clever or enlightened for having the idea that people could decide their gender arbitrarily and on a continuum of variation - and that this should be somehow normalised rather than being viewed as eccentricity or mental illness.
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Andrew97
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Here is a novel idea. Why not allow the person who would have the best chance of winning and who would do the best job on the shortlist?













Spoiler:
Show

Radical I know
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cat_mac
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““What if men pretend to be trans to get a seat?” is the last refuge of the desperate. Politics is already a game rigged for incompetent white men – how would such a man benefit from posing as a trans woman?” a great point by Shon Faye :hahaha:
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cat_mac
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#11
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#11
(Original post by Andrew97)
Here is a novel idea. Why not allow the person who would have the best chance of winning and who would do the best job on the shortlist?













Spoiler:
Show

Radical I know
Those two aren’t really mutually exclusive :unsure:
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Kaffee_1998
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#12
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#12
(Original post by Davij038)
https://www.theguardian.com/commenti...rtlists-labour

I personally disagree: it’s the current year, why are they not having trans only shortlists as well?

Trans and gender fluid people represent the best of the Labour Party, people like Eddie Izzard Among others are exactly the sort of forward thinking candidates that this country needs to move the Labour Party forward.

Surely you are being sarcastic?
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Andrew97
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(Original post by cat_mac)
Those two aren’t really mutually exclusive :unsure:
That I can agree with. But if the mp does a good job, they will then become popular with their electorate. So there can be a link. Point taken though.
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Trinculo
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#14
(Original post by Andrew97)
Here is a novel idea. Why not allow the person who would have the best chance of winning and who would do the best job on the shortlist?

Spoiler:
Show


Radical I know

This is completely contrary to the entire ethos of Momentum Labour.

They have said time and time again that their aim is not primarily to win, but to transform the Labour Party philosophically.

They don't want the candidate most likely to win, they want to most political candidate.
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Trinculo
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#15
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#15
(Original post by cat_mac)
““What if men pretend to be trans to get a seat?” is the last refuge of the desperate. Politics is already a game rigged for incompetent white men – how would such a man benefit from posing as a trans woman?” a great point by Shon Faye :hahaha:
Do you have any evidence that a non-white non-man would have made better decisions in the recent past?
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Andrew97
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#16
(Original post by Trinculo)
This is completely contrary to the entire ethos of Momentum Labour.

They have said time and time again that their aim is not primarily to win, but to transform the Labour Party philosophically.

They don't want the candidate most likely to win, they want to most political candidate.
Hmmm. That seems like a very strange strategy in a general election. Some of Moementum backed candidates are rather vile (as are before any shouts me down are some conservatives) for example Emma Dent Coad isn’t a lovely person, not sure how she is still an Mp to be honest?
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cat_mac
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#17
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#17
(Original post by Trinculo)
Do you have any evidence that a non-white non-man would have made better decisions in the recent past?
That’s not what this quote is saying, it’s saying that it’s much more easy to get into politics as a white man than it is for a transgender woman. So people implying men will self identify as a woman to get some kind of extra help in achieving their career goals is counter productive.
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Andrew97
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#18
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#18
(Original post by cat_mac)
““What if men pretend to be trans to get a seat?” is the last refuge of the desperate. Politics is already a game rigged for incompetent white men – how would such a man benefit from posing as a trans woman?” a great point by Shon Faye :hahaha:
I disagree that it is rigged on favour of white men. I personally think (im happy to be proved wrong) that in some cases white men are held to a higher standard than other demographics. If a white man had said the kind of things that Diane Abbot and Emma Dent Coad have said, they would be fired.


Just for balance. George Osbourne should have lost his editor job over his Theresa May freezer comments
.
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Trinculo
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#19
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#19
(Original post by Andrew97)
Hmmm. That seems like a very strange strategy in a general election. Some of Moementum backed candidates are rather vile (as are before any shouts me down are some conservatives) for example Emma Dent Coad isn’t a lovely person, not sure how she is still an Mp to be honest?
It's not a general election strategy. It's the Momentum Strategy.

Sure, they would *like* to win a GE - but it's not their primary short-term goal. Their primary short-term goal is to embed the Labour Party with hard left principles and hard left people, so that it has a Marxist "soul".

It's not "some" of the Momentum candidates who are terrible people -it's most of them. But they aren't being selected on their character - they're being selected on how radically left-wing they are.
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the beer
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#20
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#20
(Original post by Trinculo)
I find it much more likely that people will look back on this short period of time and think of us as utter morons for the social ideas we let take hold.

I find it wholly unlikely that 75 years from now people will think that we were clever or enlightened for having the idea that people could decide their gender arbitrarily and on a continuum of variation - and that this should be somehow normalised rather than being viewed as eccentricity or mental illness.
Why shouldn't we normalise mental illness?
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