Is Boris preparing to suspend British democracy? Watch

Rakas21
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#41
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#41
(Original post by Burton Bridge)
Really, I thought it was 6 weeks, which is 25th-31st October if the motion is pushed along at lightning speed, for our parliament anyway!

I just don't see it mate, even if they did how is a general election going to change, it's just simply too tight - no?
Probably rounded up since parliament only normally sits 5 days a week but dissolving and ceremonial stuff oNly needs 4 days.

If you mean is timing too tight then no. If we get anything other than a Tory or Tory-DUP majority then even if a legal extension would require a summit the EU and UK could easily agree not to change anything until said summit. Equally an alternate government could just extend the exit date on our side, the EU would not say no.

So sadly, we are still vulnerable until the conference recess.

(Original post by Grizwuld)
Sorry if this seems a bit dim...

As a Brexiteer why does Boris have to do anything? Isn't the bottom line: the UK will automatically cease to be a member of the EU on the 31st October 2019 in accordance with pre-existing treaty provisions and law... unless the UK signs the existing deal approved by the EU.

What does it matter what Boris or anyone else wants/desires/ or dreams of?
The opposition still has options to try such as a monc or passing legislation after taking control of the order paper.

They have to fail for Boris to ride out the period until Brexit.
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Wired_1800
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(Original post by ByEeek)
Some interesting points. Parliament is stuck between a rock and a hard place. No one wants a hard brexit because it will be horrendous. No one voted for total meltdown surely? There is a good deal on the table. I support Mays deal but it is unpalatable because if Ireland.

Whatever happens will come back to Ireland. The EU will not tolerate an open border. So Ireland has a choice to close the border or put the border on Irish ports. But then that contravenes free movement.

And amidst this we have the paramilitaries who despite our best efforts wete never crushed. And nor has terrorism. Despite your tough talk, IS and Al Quida and te IRA and the UVF and all the others are still very much alive and kicking.
May’s deal was not Brexit. We cannot claim to be leaving but then held back through the back door. Apparently, one of the conditions of the deal was that the EU had a say in our future trade agreements. Another was that they decided whether the backstop could be removed, even if we wanted it removed. No intelligent politician would have accepted such. Theresa May was desperate to have the deal, so she wont go down as a very useless and incompetent PM. Sources claim that she wanted to leave in July, so her tenure would not have been shorter than Gordon Brown. Tell me what was Mrs May known for? Nothing.

The EU wont tolerate anything because they don't want the UK to leave. If the UK leaves and is successful with it, then what is the point of the EU? Many people don't seem to understand the political undertones of Brexit and the EU’s fight for survival. We have been focused on economics and jobs, that we have allowed the socio-political aims to slip away.

Yes, those were never crushed, but this time will be different. A conflict like this wont be tolerated by the EU and the UK, so Ireland would be forced to also intervene, in order to save face.

I think we should come together to make Brexit a success. It saddens me that we have not been shocked at the erosion of democracy. Yes, Brexit is a contentious issue, but the idea that a Parliament can go against the direct will of its own people is truly appalling. We laugh at other crazy countries and banana republics about the pseudo-democracy that they use. Yet, our Parliament is showing contempt for its own people. On a good day, the Americans would have invaded our nation “trying to give us democracy”.
Last edited by Wired_1800; 3 weeks ago
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Fullofsurprises
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(Original post by Wired_1800)
May’s deal was not Brexit. We cannot claim to be leaving but then held back through the back door. Apparently, one of the conditions of the deal was that the EU had a say in our future trade agreements. Another was that they decided whether the backstop could be removed, even if we wanted it removed. No intelligent politician would have accepted such. Theresa May was desperate to have the deal, so she wont go down as a very useless and incompetent PM. Sources claim that she wanted to leave in July, so her tenure would not have been shorter than Gordon Brown. Tell me what was Mrs May known for? Nothing.

The EU wont tolerate anything because they don't want the UK to leave. If the UK leaves and is successful with it, then what is the point of the EU? Many people don't seem to understand the political undertones of Brexit and the EU’s fight for survival. We have been focused on economics and jobs, that we have allowed the socio-political aims to slip away.

Yes, those were never crushed, but this time will be different. A conflict like this wont be tolerated by the EU and the UK, so Ireland would be forced to also intervene, in order to save face.

I think we should come together to make Brexit a success. It saddens me that we have not been shocked at the erosion of democracy. Yes, Brexit is a contentious issue, but the idea that a Parliament can go against the direct will of its own people is truly appalling. We laugh at other crazy countries and banana republics about the pseudo-democracy that they use. Yet, our Parliament is showing contempt for its own people. On a good day, the Americans would have invaded our nation “trying to give us democracy”.
Parliament hasn't been showing contempt for its own people. Your entire argument is based on the completely false assertion that the referendum advocated a no-deal hard Brexit. This is not the case. During the campaign, all major Leave spokespeople repeatedly and regularly stated that it would be easy to achieve a deal.

The backstop was needed only because the Tory Party is in office with the consent of the DUP, an organisation as twisted as it is mentally bankrupt and financially corrupt. When you get into bed with bad people, you can expect bad consequences. The DUP has been completely irrational in its approach, but no more so that the Tory hard right, terrified of Farage and advocating what is economically destructive to most of the country apart from a small clique of offshored hedge fund managers like Rees-Mogg.
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Le Male
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(Original post by Fullofsurprises)
A leaked memo indicates that Boris has been seeking legal advice on suspending Parliament from 9 Sept for 5 weeks, to get through Brexit by executive Privy Council powers.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics...iament-closure

Not since the English Civil War has something like this been done.

If this happens, there will literally be no point in voting going forwards. An unelected Prime Minister chosen by a narrow cabal of activist right wing Torys and former UKIP members will be taking arrogant state decisions invoking the monarch and suppressing any debate.

If Boris does do this, the people will and must take to the streets.
Forgive me if I am wrong, but you seem to be implying suspension of parliament is grounds for civil war and riots, could you clarify please?
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Wired_1800
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(Original post by Fullofsurprises)
Parliament hasn't been showing contempt for its own people. Your entire argument is based on the completely false assertion that the referendum advocated a no-deal hard Brexit. This is not the case. During the campaign, all major Leave spokespeople repeatedly and regularly stated that it would be easy to achieve a deal.

The backstop was needed only because the Tory Party is in office with the consent of the DUP, an organisation as twisted as it is mentally bankrupt and financially corrupt. When you get into bed with bad people, you can expect bad consequences. The DUP has been completely irrational in its approach, but no more so that the Tory hard right, terrified of Farage and advocating what is economically destructive to most of the country apart from a small clique of offshored hedge fund managers like Rees-Mogg.
Yes, but if we don't get a good deal then we leave with no deal. Do you remain in your landlord’s house, if you don't get a good rent deal? Of course not, you move out. It is ridiculous to assume or even assert that we should remain in the EU whether through the backdoor or through the front.

Parliament is playing the old trick of frustrating the ability to leave, then, together with the EU and media, conclude that the only reasonable option is to remain. The fundamental issue with that, is there seems to be resistance to such a plot, hence why Parliament is gridlocked. Apparently, about 70% of MPs are openly Remainers and have tried to frustrate Brexit. It is no longer news that Phillip Hammond refused to prepare for all eventualities and did not fund the system for potential No Deal.

Like I wrote before, let us turn the table; imagine it was the other way round, where Parliament were trying to force through Brexit, even when the majority voted for Remain. Would you be happy with the “democracy”? Be honest. If you wont, then you are a big hypocrite.
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SteveyStack
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(Original post by Fullofsurprises)
Parliament hasn't been showing contempt for its own people. Your entire argument is based on the completely false assertion that the referendum advocated a no-deal hard Brexit. This is not the case. During the campaign, all major Leave spokespeople repeatedly and regularly stated that it would be easy to achieve a deal.

The backstop was needed only because the Tory Party is in office with the consent of the DUP, an organisation as twisted as it is mentally bankrupt and financially corrupt. When you get into bed with bad people, you can expect bad consequences. The DUP has been completely irrational in its approach, but no more so that the Tory hard right, terrified of Farage and advocating what is economically destructive to most of the country apart from a small clique of offshored hedge fund managers like Rees-Mogg.
True but it’s easy to look at it in an unbalanced way. The fact of the matter is both sides of the argument lied continuously throughout the campaign so while no one voted explicitly for this no one really knew any facts at all!
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Andrew97
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You know full well we elect MPs, not the PM.
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JanusGodofDoors
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#48
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The foundation of democracy is debate and disagreement. A failure to tolerate either is a threat to democracy itself. If Johnson’s ideas really are what’s best for the country, he should have nothing to fear about the elected representatives of the people engaging in a debate over their merits.
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Wired_1800
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(Original post by JanusGodofDoors)
The foundation of democracy is debate and disagreement. A failure to tolerate either is a threat to democracy itself. If Johnson’s ideas really are what’s best for the country, he should have nothing to fear about the elected representatives of the people engaging in a debate over their merits.
That is a fair point, but what happens when the so-called representatives are not interested in debate and disagreements? Caroline Lucas and Jo Swinson said multiple times that they wont support Brexit, even if it was repeated again, with the facts and the people still voted to Leave.

The issue is that many people esp on the Remain side are not really interested in debate or compromise. They just want nothing to happen. They are trying to chip away, so that Brexit is so diluted that it would be BrINO (Brexit in name only). Few suggestions that I have heard are:

1. There should be a People’s Vote, where we put two or three options to them. First, Theresa May’s Deal, second, Leave with No Deal (then they add: “Crash Out” to become alarmist); third, Remain.

We all know what will happen here. The Brexiteers dilute the vote by splitting between the first and second options.

2. There should be Second Referendum because people were lied to during the first one. This time we will have the “facts” on the future that everyone agrees that they have no clue on what will happen. Then the media can scare people into submission.

3. To avoid another “error” being made by the people, Parliament should decide on behalf of the people.

4. We do nothing and just remain. Parliament apologises to the nation and agrees that we don't live in a democracy and ignore the vote. People protest for a while until something good comes up to distract us. Maybe Meghan Markle or Kate Middleton has another kid, we win the World Cup or we win Eurovision, then it is all good.
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ByEeek
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(Original post by Wired_1800)
May’s deal was not Brexit.
It never was. It was an interim deal to allow us to ease out of the EU slowly and in control.

As we are about to discover on 31st October, you can't rip the control room out of a nuclear power station and expect things to keep going ticketty-boo because well, "they'll" figure something out.

I would love Brexit to be a success but what should I do to make this happen? Hope? Smile? Celebrate? We are turning the clock back 40 years. Some say we will be better off in 50 years. I will be dead in 50 years. I want to be better off tomorrow. Brexit will make me worse off tomorrow. What can I do to make it a success?
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Wired_1800
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(Original post by ByEeek)
It never was. It was an interim deal to allow us to ease out of the EU slowly and in control.

As we are about to discover on 31st October, you can't rip the control room out of a nuclear power station and expect things to keep going ticketty-boo because well, "they'll" figure something out.

I would love Brexit to be a success but what should I do to make this happen? Hope? Smile? Celebrate? We are turning the clock back 40 years. Some say we will be better off in 50 years. I will be dead in 50 years. I want to be better off tomorrow. Brexit will make me worse off tomorrow. What can I do to make it a success?
Yes, it was supposed to help smoothen the process, but when you bolt the UK to the EU, how can you achieve true exit?

Yes, the issue is with the No Deal that we have not sufficiently prepared for. It was sad that Madam May and Mr Hammond did not plan for it. It was a stroke of genius from them. Don't prepare, so you can scare people about the consequences. If the previous Govt prepared, we would have been at a much better place today.

What you need to do is to support the Government. When we speak on a united front, we can conquer anything. The EU has spoken on a united front, whilst we were backstabbing and beating up each other. It was the best case of idiocy on the part of the UK. We got what we deserved. Don't fall for the lie that we will be better off in 50 years. Nobody knows what will happen tomorrow, yet they seem to know what will happen in 50 years.

Now, we must back the PM. Yes, we may not like or support him, but we need to make Brexit a success. The EU would fall in line, if they see we are united.
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Burton Bridge
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(Original post by ByEeek)
Perhaps parliament is representing the views of ALL 70 million Britons rather than just the 17 million who voted to leave? Even those who voted to leave it is clear they did so with a wide variety of outcomes in mind, not just one.

Democracy has always been a compromise. Doing away with parliament to appease those who feel they were victorious in a vote that was flawed by misinformation and propoganda on all sides is as anti- democratic as it gets.
When powerful elected people decide what elections/votes respect and disrespect based on their own opinions, that's when democracy falls and dictatorship Rises
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ByEeek
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(Original post by Wired_1800)
Yes, it was supposed to help smoothen the process, but when you bolt the UK to the EU, how can you achieve true exit?

Yes, the issue is with the No Deal that we have not sufficiently prepared for. It was sad that Madam May and Mr Hammond did not plan for it. It was a stroke of genius from them. Don't prepare, so you can scare people about the consequences. If the previous Govt prepared, we would have been at a much better place today.

What you need to do is to support the Government. When we speak on a united front, we can conquer anything. The EU has spoken on a united front, whilst we were backstabbing and beating up each other. It was the best case of idiocy on the part of the UK. We got what we deserved. Don't fall for the lie that we will be better off in 50 years. Nobody knows what will happen tomorrow, yet they seem to know what will happen in 50 years.

Now, we must back the PM. Yes, we may not like or support him, but we need to make Brexit a success. The EU would fall in line, if they see we are united.
Ok. So I now fully support my MP to do whatever he needs to do to get the UK out of Europe. So how will I personally be better off now that I have been convinced greatness can be conjoured (your word) out of thin air??
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Wired_1800
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(Original post by ByEeek)
Ok. So I now fully support my MP to do whatever he needs to do to get the UK out of Europe. So how will I personally be better off now that I have been convinced greatness can be conjoured (your word) out of thin air??
It has to do with whether the nation backs Mr Johnson. If they don't, how can he go to the EU to negotiate on our behalf?

Imagine the humiliation to go to Donald Tusk to ask for a better deal, then Mr Tusk says no, because your Parliament and nation is not behind you.
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TheMcSame
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It's a funny one. He's trying to deny parliament a vote in order to make something the public voted for happen, as the public is a larger group, they're the priority. Personally, I'd say that's in support of democracy if not slightly grey. Parliament has had, what is it now? 3 years? They've got nowhere, they're not getting anywhere in the space of 2 months. Just more yapping on about another referendum, leaving the EU without actually leaving and some Scottish yobbo proclaiming that Brexit means an independent Scotland (Good luck when the EU won't take you in because you don't meet their requirements and we're not propping up your economy and ageing population)

This may well be a case of a necessary evil for the greater good. Only time will tell.

As for the "unelected" remark. Much like May, Boris was elected. When we vote for a political party, we vote for just that, a party. The party (usually) chooses who should be the face of their party. Boris was voted in by the tories, the tories were voted in by the public. Therefore Boris was elected. If you stopped playing identity politics you wouldn't be so blind as to how our own Government system works in regards to elections.
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ByEeek
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(Original post by Wired_1800)
It has to do with whether the nation backs Mr Johnson. If they don't, how can he go to the EU to negotiate on our behalf?

Imagine the humiliation to go to Donald Tusk to ask for a better deal, then Mr Tusk says no, because your Parliament and nation is not behind you.
But there is no better deal simply because Northern Ireland is irreconcilable. So it is either the deal we have which allows for managed withdrawal or hard Brexit. There is no better deal. It is still for the EU to say no and their loss as individual nations will always be less than ours. That is why collaboration is a good thing and why we can only lose out by going it alone.

I am still to hear why Brexit will be good for me though. I have asked this question so many times and an still waiting for a response. Sell me Brexit. Why is it awesome?
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Wired_1800
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(Original post by ByEeek)
But there is no better deal simply because Northern Ireland is irreconcilable. So it is either the deal we have which allows for managed withdrawal or hard Brexit. There is no better deal. It is still for the EU to say no and their loss as individual nations will always be less than ours. That is why collaboration is a good thing and why we can only lose out by going it alone.

I am still to hear why Brexit will be good for me though. I have asked this question so many times and an still waiting for a response. Sell me Brexit. Why is it awesome?

Ok, here is my view.

The UK currently is tied to the failing EU which dilutes its influence and opportunities. You always have to get the agreement of 27 other nations. Soon it could be 30 or 40 or even 45, where with every additional nation, your influence diminishes further. That is dangerous for a nation’s survival. In addition, the EU is moving quickly towards a Federation where individual nations are merely states and Prime Ministers are glorified Governors.

With the UK out, we have the chance to form our own future. That will involve working with our neighbours across the Channel and working with allies around the world. We will have the opportunity to forge new friendships and re-affirm old ones. Trade with allies and engage with foes. We don't have to be in the EU to do so.

Yes, the critics say it is stupid and that we will suffer, but nobody knows the future. The EU is in trouble and many people are rejecting it because the European project is dying or probably already dead. The concentration of power, wealth and authority lies in a handful of countries that the rest are getting fed up of the lies.

I think Brexit will be good for you because you get your nation back. A country for you and your children and your children’s children. One where Parliament is supreme, where we are not held back by European bureaucracy because we are supposed to do what we are told. A nation that trades with the world and can regain its place at the top table, not be the glorified municipality of the European Union that needs the permission of the French, Germans or Dutch.

Brexit is not about leaving Europe but leaving a political institution. We can still be friends, allies and partners with out neighbours. We just don't want to be members of their club. We should make a decision on what we want our future to be in the world.

Should we become a federal state of the EU and accept our place in the world or should we build our own future? That is the decision that we should make, not the slowly erosion of sovereignty and integration into the European Federation. If the UK wants to be part of the European project, then so be it; but we should make the decision on our own.

I hope I have answered your query.
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ByEeek
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(Original post by Wired_1800)
Ok, here is my view.

The UK currently is tied to the failing EU which dilutes its influence and opportunities. You always have to get the agreement of 27 other nations. Soon it could be 30 or 40 or even 45, where with every additional nation, your influence diminishes further. That is dangerous for a nation’s survival. In addition, the EU is moving quickly towards a Federation where individual nations are merely states and Prime Ministers are glorified Governors.

With the UK out, we have the chance to form our own future. That will involve working with our neighbours across the Channel and working with allies around the world. We will have the opportunity to forge new friendships and re-affirm old ones. Trade with allies and engage with foes. We don't have to be in the EU to do so.

Yes, the critics say it is stupid and that we will suffer, but nobody knows the future. The EU is in trouble and many people are rejecting it because the European project is dying or probably already dead. The concentration of power, wealth and authority lies in a handful of countries that the rest are getting fed up of the lies.

I think Brexit will be good for you because you get your nation back. A country for you and your children and your children’s children. One where Parliament is supreme, where we are not held back by European bureaucracy because we are supposed to do what we are told. A nation that trades with the world and can regain its place at the top table, not be the glorified municipality of the European Union that needs the permission of the French, Germans or Dutch.

Brexit is not about leaving Europe but leaving a political institution. We can still be friends, allies and partners with out neighbours. We just don't want to be members of their club. We should make a decision on what we want our future to be in the world.

Should we become a federal state of the EU and accept our place in the world or should we build our own future? That is the decision that we should make, not the slowly erosion of sovereignty and integration into the European Federation. If the UK wants to be part of the European project, then so be it; but we should make the decision on our own.

I hope I have answered your query.
Yep. A good response. I just find it so sad that in your view it is us and them. My view as that it is all of us remembering that we were one of the louder voices that bought excellent legislation to Europe like human rights, environmental laws and food standards. Not them telling us anything. And the stuff we didn't want we vetoed. We even got a rebait on our subs!

Sure we will be friends (eventually) but on significantly worse terms. And it isn't their club. It was ours. All of us. And now we are out we will have to pay non-member rates to play. How that is good is beyond me. When we start playing hardball (and losing) with the Yanks we will fast discover just how similar we are to the Europeans.

Good response though. Respect!
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SteveyStack
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(Original post by ByEeek)
Yep. A good response. I just find it so sad that in your view it is us and them. My view as that it is all of us remembering that we were one of the louder voices that bought excellent legislation to Europe like human rights, environmental laws and food standards. Not them telling us anything. And the stuff we didn't want we vetoed. We even got a rebait on our subs!

Sure we will be friends (eventually) but on significantly worse terms. And it isn't their club. It was ours. All of us. And now we are out we will have to pay non-member rates to play. How that is good is beyond me. When we start playing hardball (and losing) with the Yanks we will fast discover just how similar we are to the Europeans.

Good response though. Respect!
I suppose it depends whether you say something is wrong we need to leave or a far from ideal system is ok because it’s a scary world outside.
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Wired_1800
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(Original post by ByEeek)
Yep. A good response. I just find it so sad that in your view it is us and them. My view as that it is all of us remembering that we were one of the louder voices that bought excellent legislation to Europe like human rights, environmental laws and food standards. Not them telling us anything. And the stuff we didn't want we vetoed. We even got a rebait on our subs!

Sure we will be friends (eventually) but on significantly worse terms. And it isn't their club. It was ours. All of us. And now we are out we will have to pay non-member rates to play. How that is good is beyond me. When we start playing hardball (and losing) with the Yanks we will fast discover just how similar we are to the Europeans.

Good response though. Respect!
This is not about Europe or Europeans but the Union that is a political institution. Many Europeans hate the Union and want to see it gone, but they wont be given the choice because they practise pseudo-democracy in their nations.

Yes, we were part of the EU, but now we must part ways. If the EU is true about us remaining friends, then they would not destroy us to send a message. We will continue to trade and live together as Europeans. After all, we are all Europeans. Also, we are not the only ones out, there is Norway and Switzerland for a start.

I think the EU should hold a Europe-wide referendum to ask EU member states whether they want to be in the Union. The sad fact is that they wont do such. Instead, they make claims that Europeans love the EU when they have not given them the choice. We were given a choice and we made a decision.
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