Is the IELTS even necessary?
Is the IELTS an unnecessary hassle, and borderline on linguistic racism? Most students who come from the 'non-native' countries, and go through a certain education and acquire work experience are very competent in English. Why are universities SO overtly insistent on this form of proficiency testing? A student's personal statement and interview can/should be sufficient proof. Isn't it a bit silly/demeaning to be asking people with over a decade's work experience to go through language proficiency testing?
Not really. A standardised test is the best way to avoid discrimination or bias in this 'waiver' process. It's also a UKVI requirement for unis to evidence English language proficiency.
As a sidenote, it's just not practical for a uni to assess the English of every candidate themselves. Most courses don't interview and personal statements are invariably coached to some degree.
As a sidenote, it's just not practical for a uni to assess the English of every candidate themselves. Most courses don't interview and personal statements are invariably coached to some degree.
As above
Plus a PS (assuming it's written by an applicant and not chatgpt) only demonstrates writing skills. The IELTS and other English language tests demonstrate the level of reading skills (as well as writing, listening and speaking).
A PS and a 1-2-1 interview isn't really comparable to demonstrating the ability to read academic texts, understand academic lectures and produce academic work in English.
People with a decade of working in an English language environment should have no problem sailing through IELTS or an equivalent accepted test to demonstrate their skills.
Most other countries ask for the same proof of language skills for admission to degrees.
Plus a PS (assuming it's written by an applicant and not chatgpt) only demonstrates writing skills. The IELTS and other English language tests demonstrate the level of reading skills (as well as writing, listening and speaking).
A PS and a 1-2-1 interview isn't really comparable to demonstrating the ability to read academic texts, understand academic lectures and produce academic work in English.
People with a decade of working in an English language environment should have no problem sailing through IELTS or an equivalent accepted test to demonstrate their skills.
Most other countries ask for the same proof of language skills for admission to degrees.
Original post by Admit-One
Not really. A standardised test is the best way to avoid discrimination or bias in this 'waiver' process. It's also a UKVI requirement for unis to evidence English language proficiency.
As a sidenote, it's just not practical for a uni to assess the English of every candidate themselves. Most courses don't interview and personal statements are invariably coached to some degree.
As a sidenote, it's just not practical for a uni to assess the English of every candidate themselves. Most courses don't interview and personal statements are invariably coached to some degree.
The point isn't about 'sailing through the IELTS'. Sure, they can sail through it. The point is that they need to pay 160 pounds, for a language test that has a two year validity (a period that has almost no scientific backing, in terms of language learning and deterioration), to prove these custodians of English (which has long become a global function), that they can keep pace.
Whether most other countries do or don't is a separate point, and very far from whether it's right or wrong. The notion that people can't manage in English and need the IELTS to show they can is insulting, archaic and extraordinarily racist. The research supporting this is plenty.
Also, 3 million students a year taking this 'standardized' testing is good economic agenda?
Original post by dhillan85
The point isn't about 'sailing through the IELTS'. Sure, they can sail through it. The point is that they need to pay 160 pounds, for a language test that has a two year validity (a period that has almost no scientific backing, in terms of language learning and deterioration), to prove these custodians of English (which has long become a global function), that they can keep pace.
Whether most other countries do or don't is a separate point, and very far from whether it's right or wrong. The notion that people can't manage in English and need the IELTS to show they can is insulting, archaic and extraordinarily racist. The research supporting this is plenty.
Also, 3 million students a year taking this 'standardized' testing is good economic agenda?
Whether most other countries do or don't is a separate point, and very far from whether it's right or wrong. The notion that people can't manage in English and need the IELTS to show they can is insulting, archaic and extraordinarily racist. The research supporting this is plenty.
Also, 3 million students a year taking this 'standardized' testing is good economic agenda?
Take it up with the UKVI. Your frustration with unis is misplaced.
Is it, now? Well, thanks for letting me know. Calling my frustration misplaced, when you've experienced none of it seems well, rather uninformed, at the least. But, I can see this conversation is going nowhere. Consider reading Nagai and Everhart's paper on language testing, neoliberal universities and the link to linguistic racism.
That might be a decent start, before you invalidate my frustration.
(Original post by Admit-One)Take it up with the UKVI. Your frustration with unis is misplaced.
That might be a decent start, before you invalidate my frustration.
(Original post by Admit-One)Take it up with the UKVI. Your frustration with unis is misplaced.
(edited 9 months ago)
Far more open to racism to open up English waivers to all and sundry staff at every uni in the UK.
Unis don’t have the time to spend 30-60 mins grilling every international candidate. If they did they’d tack it on as an additional charge for them.
Home students get treated the same, an English language qualification or they don’t come.
£160 is a pittance if you’re going to be spending £45k on tuition fees alone. I don’t buy that the cost is a hindrance.
The UK government sets the policy. I said your frustration was misplaced, not invalid.
I’ll read the paper if I get bored of personal statements. Thanks for the heads up.
Unis don’t have the time to spend 30-60 mins grilling every international candidate. If they did they’d tack it on as an additional charge for them.
Home students get treated the same, an English language qualification or they don’t come.
£160 is a pittance if you’re going to be spending £45k on tuition fees alone. I don’t buy that the cost is a hindrance.
The UK government sets the policy. I said your frustration was misplaced, not invalid.
I’ll read the paper if I get bored of personal statements. Thanks for the heads up.
Actually, no. Home students don't get treated the same. Check your facts before getting defensive, maybe?
There are countries whose citizens are classified as 'native' speakers of English. Each university typically has a list, but for the most part, they're the same. For example; a citizen of Belize needn't show any form of English competency, whereas a citizen of India must.
Secondly, the cost for a postgraduate hovers between 14k to 23k, depending on the course/college of your choice. Thirdly, as my original post stated, I believe industry experience (especially if you're using English, on a daily basis) is more than sufficient proof of competence.
I'm not going to attempt to educate you further on why this is problematic, or what the possible solutions are, because it seems you be putting very little effort in that direction yourself, before replying. The UK government sets the policy, yes. Universities have the agency to waive it off.
Also, whether you 'buy' that 160 pounds is a hindrance is irrelevant. The way costs add up, any money saved is well worth it. People with a very clear grasp over the language don't need to be put through the humiliation of their past education and work experience being questioned as valid 'metrics'. Passing or failing is entirely besides the point.
I'll take your point about the personal statement being coached, though. That's an entirely different problem.
There are countries whose citizens are classified as 'native' speakers of English. Each university typically has a list, but for the most part, they're the same. For example; a citizen of Belize needn't show any form of English competency, whereas a citizen of India must.
Secondly, the cost for a postgraduate hovers between 14k to 23k, depending on the course/college of your choice. Thirdly, as my original post stated, I believe industry experience (especially if you're using English, on a daily basis) is more than sufficient proof of competence.
I'm not going to attempt to educate you further on why this is problematic, or what the possible solutions are, because it seems you be putting very little effort in that direction yourself, before replying. The UK government sets the policy, yes. Universities have the agency to waive it off.
Also, whether you 'buy' that 160 pounds is a hindrance is irrelevant. The way costs add up, any money saved is well worth it. People with a very clear grasp over the language don't need to be put through the humiliation of their past education and work experience being questioned as valid 'metrics'. Passing or failing is entirely besides the point.
I'll take your point about the personal statement being coached, though. That's an entirely different problem.
The rules on exempt countries are set by UKVI not universities https://www.gov.uk/student-visa/knowledge-of-english
That's why they're all the same
That's why they're all the same
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