Original post by BashtopherThe withdrawal agreement isn't done! It is going back to parliament for a fourth meaningful vote next month. Whilst the government and the EU have come to an agreement, this is largely seen as unacceptable to brexiteers and remainers alike. I don't know what you think is happening to be honest.
The argument that we should not listen to experts because they have sometimes been wrong in the past is an insane one. Should I not listen to experts on climate change too? When am I allowed to ever listen to experts? I'll tell my children not to listen to their teachers too, because my gut feeling knows more about maths than them! I remember Michael Gove saying that we should ignore experts during the referendum campaign. It's funny that as soon as an expert agrees with something he says that he is happy to quote them. Such an immature and ill thought out way to approach data and forecasting, and typical of why the nation chose to leave.
In more or less the same breath, you say that we can agree that that uncertainty surrounding brexit is damaging business, whilst also saying that no one knows what no deal brings (which is why you claim forecasts don't work) in favour of a no deal! You can't have it both ways, it is counterintuitive. And if you think any certainty lies in wto tariffs, then we are in a worse position. Not just because experts think it, but because it is a fall back, not a good trade deal.
One thing we should be able to agree on, is that EFTA provides certainty, can be implemented quickly and is more economically beneficialthan both wto or nothing. And yes, while you can agree with me on that, I can agree that our current membership is better than EFTA!
I base my arguments on evidence. I find it frustrating that many people don't. I never said you blamed the EU for austerity. I used the example (i.e. used as evidence) that the national government of the day is responsible for wealth redistribution, not the EU. You can vaguely say "oh well the EU has worked well for the rich" because the wealth divide has constantly increased in this country (which I can only assume is your position), but to blame the EU while completely ignoring the role of the state in wealth disparity is absurd. The EU isn't so intrusive as to sort income inequality in individual countries. The national government of the day is responsible for reducing income inequality! I'm beginning to think you fundamentally misunderstand the role of the EU.
A straw man argument is what you seem to be aiming for, in all truth. You have misrepresented a few things I've said (the austerity thing, wanting my son to "travel", irrelevantly mentioning that I did not say "lib dems"as the coalition partner). I'm very aware that going into the EU was a Tory policy. It was actually a good Tory policy that has benefited the country as a whole. Shock horror, the Tories sometimes make good policy decisions!
The fact that you've said "I'm correct that's a fact", when refusing to accept actual facts and provide any evidence, speaks volumes about where you're coming from. The fact that you don't want people to have a say on a term of Brexit you don't like (despite chastising me for saying that I think Brexit is stupid (based on evidence)) also speaks volumes.
This also speaks volumes about the maturity of your argument.
Firstly, I think it's impossible to know why many people voted leave, especially in relation to the customs union. Although yeah, I think making our own trade deals certainly implies this, as you said. I do think that, because brexit was mainly decided on immigration (polls suggest this), then leaving the single market was big for most brexiteers. I still think staying in the single market while leaving the EU should be considered though, since it still honours the result of the referendum (since we'd still leave the EU). Secondly, apologies if you did not mean to equate the four freedoms with the customs union, but the way this sentence is structured says that you did, since you do not separate the two clauses:
But I can see you were responding to someone who mentions both the CU and single market, so I'm sure you didn't mean to equate the two.