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Ayatullah Mutahhari r.a - one of the most emminent leading thinkers and scholars who was killed last century.

“Blood matam in its present form does not have a rational or religious basis. It is a clear instance of deviation. At least, in the present day it causes Shi’ism to be questioned. Activities that do not have any relation to the goals of Imam Husayn (a) are razors, blades and locks. Striking the head with a blade is the same. This is a mistake. Some people take blades and strike their heads making blood flow – for what? This action is not mourning.”Howzah va Ruhaniyat, v.3

Reply 22

OP

Original post by Al-farhan

Salaam
Well firstly thank you for taking time to answer my questions.
But opening up a new thread to answer questions asked on another thread is quite strange.

Walaykum salam,

I created this thread in order to have a FAQ section in the first page, and have material in the first page, so people who had enquiries and questions about shia islam could refer to those questions, or atleast get a basic understanding, before asking questions to avoid repeating questions. I can, in time in the original post, continue to update the FAQ.

If there was a thread to ask questions specifically by shia's, about sunni's, would you not consider it better to create the thread yourself, have a FAQ post and a few posts on the front page to give key details and key aspects of information, and have control over the title 'sunni islam' as a pose to 'sunni-ism' ?

Being one of the few on here who answers, it does get very time consuming, especially with personal issues, and i felt it best to create the FAQ and dedicate the front page to giving the basics and answering key misconceptions.

Reply 23

OP

Original post by Al-farhan

Sayiid Al-khoi'i

Spoiler

You quote ayatullah Khoi, who gave strict conditions on it.

The successor in Iraq to ayatullah khoi r.a and one of the most followed marji's, ayatullah sistani r.a, himself states he expresses no opinion on the issue of tatbir, either for it, nor against it.

Furthermore, even the ones who deem it permissible under strict situations, they issue some form of forbidding of it in certain contexts:

Grand Ayatullah Basheer Hussain Al-Najafi

Question:
“Is it permissable to do qama and zanjeer zani hitting yourself with sword and knives?”

Answer:
“Bismahe SubhanaIt is permitted unless Mawla Imam Hussain’s (as) and the Ahl-ul-Bayt’s persecution are considered as propaganda or if he is not allowed by his doctor because it might result in death or losing of a body part. Matam-qama or matam-zanjeer should not be done if he is settled in a part of the world where people due to their ignorance or lack of knowledge about Imam Hussain (as) after watching such matam are turned away from Imam Hussain (as). Therefore it should be avoided in front of such people.

Reply 24

Original post by Tawheed

Salamunalaykum,

I won't deny that there are shia's who perform tatbir, and scholars who permit it under strict circumstances. After all, we often see people cupping, blood letting, this is merely in a different way, but one i am absolutely against. It must also be noted, only a minority of shia's do tatbir, it is dying out, Alhamdullilah. It is only culture, and not shia theology that justifies it.

Wa alaikum al salaam.

I would hope it dies out, but you only have to google ''تطبيرولطميه 2016'' to see that sadly it is still widely practiced or widely accepted.
We see that some scholars do use shia theology to justify it and not just from a cultural side. As seen in the fatwa collection there is theological justification.
The other thing is Sayyid Sadiq Rohani calims that:
not a single scholar from the last century who frowns upon it
why would a great emulation scholar claim such a thing if it is a lie?

However, again brother, i have a lot of experience debating the issue of tatbir, seeing as i've done it with shia's. Again, i am sure it is not you who has made the below points, but have obtained it on another website. This isn't to put you down, but i know someone of your intelligence would never make such big errors as has made in the below (false) claims.

Quite frankly Tawheed I'm surprised and disappointed that the accusations have surfaced so early.
I as mentioned earlier do not take anything from anywhere else but from the source books. I have only delved into this to seek the truth and find it for myself, and if reading the books of the madhab and having questions is deserving of accusations, then all I can say is SubhanAllah.
Another point to mention is that:
These are not my words but translations from the earlier book I mentioned of Sayed Rohani. I just couldn't keep on taking snapshots of the pages and keep uploading and posting them. Just get the book bro and I tell you the page numbers I saw them in.

Not only was Ayatullah Khomeini r.a against Tatbir, but so was Ayatullah Mutahari r.a, as well as the current Ayatullah Khamanei , and in addition to Ayatullah Makarem Shirazi , these are heavy weights in Iran, and Khomeini and Khamanei are the supreme leaders, the faqih's, the Rahbars.

As mentioned above Rohani claims it is part of the faith, he also lists a strong claim that scholars of the past century all saw it as permissible, and that only recent scholars see it as haram. And he mentioned some named scholars (ref of names in my previous post).
So we can say that is is an issue of ikhtilaf among earlier and recent shia's?!
As that is what it is seeming to me.

This is actually a glaring mistake, a very, very bad mistake., taking into account tatbir has only really become somewhat seen more in the recent two centuries.

I'll prove it wrong fairly quickly.

Grand Ayatullah Muhsin Al-Amin Al-Amuli

Ayatullah Muhsin Al-Amin (~1868-1952), was one of the greatest scholars of his time. He is known for his biographical encyclopaedia, Ayan Al-Shi’ah (62 volumes) and for his very strong opposition to blood shedding rituals. He is known to have boycotted meetings where they were performed.He wrote the book “Al-Majalis Al-Saniya” (1928) in which he said: “And what some people do injuring themselves with swords and hitting themselves in a way that harms them is from the encouragement of Shaytan"

Grand Ayatullah Abul Hassan Esfahani

Ayatullah Esfahani (1860–1946) was the highest ranking Shia jurist and the sole Marja of his time. He openly supported the stance of Ayatullah Muhsin Al-Amin on this issue.“The usage of swords, chains, drums, horns and the likes today, which have become common in mourning ceremonies on Ashura, is definitely forbidden and against religious doctrine.”
Dayrah al-Ma”arif Tashayu’, v.2, p.531; A’yan al-Shia, v.10, p.378; Professor Hassan Shabir, Tarikh Iraq Mu’asir, v.2, p.340

Well you don't have to tell me that, it is the claim of sayed rohani.

I have studied this extensively, there is not a single authentic narration that could be used to justify tatbir.

Well I've only just started my journey with shia books but I'm sure rohani wouldn't claim that if it was a lie, since he is regarded as a major emulation figure.

Reply 25

Original post by Tawheed

Walaykum salam,

I created this thread in order to have a FAQ section in the first page, and have material in the first page, so people who had enquiries and questions about shia islam could refer to those questions, or atleast get a basic understanding, before asking questions to avoid repeating questions. I can, in time in the original post, continue to update the FAQ.

If there was a thread to ask questions specifically by shia's, about sunni's, would you not consider it better to create the thread yourself, have a FAQ post and a few posts on the front page to give key details and key aspects of information, and have control over the title 'sunni islam' as a pose to 'sunni-ism' ?

Being one of the few on here who answers, it does get very time consuming, especially with personal issues, and i felt it best to create the FAQ and dedicate the front page to giving the basics and answering key misconceptions.

Well for the the sake of your FAQ thread it would have been better to just leave this thread with the faqs and answer my questions (which aren't faq, rather farhan-QS :tongue:

) so your faq will sadly be derailed and lose its purpose with my questions

Reply 26

I think we can close up the topic of tatbir with the following (my understanding so far):
It is an issue of ikhtilaf among shia's and some agree with it and believe in it strongly while others don't.

Reply 27

OP

Original post by Al-farhan

Wa alaikum al salaam.

I would hope it dies out, but you only have to google ''تطبيرولطميه 2016'' to see that sadly it is still widely practiced or widely accepted.

Dear brother , even i hope it dies out. The important thing we have to note here, is that any graphic image of someone cutting will likely spark mass media coverage and a spread on the internet. It would be incorrect to say tatbir is widely practised, by the way. I've been to shia communities and centre's all over the world.

Only a minority perform it, even if the others who do not consider it permissible. And as it only really came in the last one or two centuries, it will also die out.

We see that some scholars do use shia theology to justify it and not just from a cultural side. As seen in the fatwa collection there is theological justification.

There is no shia theology that can be used to justify it. Whoever has done, in my view , has given their own ijtihad. It is their opinion.

The other thing is Sayyid Sadiq Rohani calims that:not a single scholar from the last century who frowns upon it
why would a great emulation scholar claim such a thing if it is a lie?

Considering the vast overwhelming majority of shia's do not emulate him, but emulate sayed ali sistani, sayed ali khamanei, sayed fadllulah, etc, who either do not preach such things , or , speak or spoke against it, the point about emulation needs to be considered in light of that.

Either way, Sayed Sadiq Rohani is a scholar, and he has his own views. If he makes a mistake in this analysis, then that his him erring in his Ijtihad, he isn't mas'um. Who says it is a lie, when it may just be a misconception?

Suffice to say, i will side with Khomeini, Khamanei, Fadllulah, Mutahari, Makarem Shirazi, and even Sayed Ali Sistani on these issues.

Quite frankly Tawheed I'm surprised and disappointed that the accusations have surfaced so early.
I as mentioned earlier do not take anything from anywhere else but from the source books. I have only delved into this to seek the truth and find it for myself, and if reading the books of the madhab and having questions is deserving of accusations, then all I can say is SubhanAllah.
Another point to mention is that:
These are not my words but translations from the earlier book I mentioned of Sayed Rohani. I just couldn't keep on taking snapshots of the pages and keep uploading and posting them. Just get the book bro and I tell you the page numbers I saw them in.

Dear brother, it isn't an accusation made at you. When discussing with you, in my heart, there are no aims or intentions of anything hidden or insulting.

I have only noticed brother, for example, in the previous discussion about shia-sunni in shia books , the sources you have used are very niche, and normally someone who studies about shia-sunni relations would probably not be going to those books first, or even know if they exist, if you know what i mean? There are other sources, clearer, explaining thing better.

Hence i have said, it seems as though a lot of these come from website's dedicated to refute shia islam, who compile these books, or give you a list of sources to look into - either a divergent opinion by a shia, etc.

This was not designed to accuse you of anything brother. I even stated, i give you the benefit of the doubt, but this just comes with experience discussing these issues.

As mentioned above Rohani claims it is part of the faith, he also lists a strong claim that scholars of the past century all saw it as permissible, and that only recent scholars see it as haram. And he mentioned some named scholars (ref of names in my previous post).
So we can say that is is an issue of ikhtilaf among earlier and recent shia's?!
As that is what it is seeming to me.

Rohani is just one individual, giving his opinion. He isn't hujjah on shia's as a whole. Again, what is more important to you brother, what Rouhani said, or me giving you proof as clear as daylight on this matter?

Earlier shia's and recent shia's have in large numbers been against it.

Well you don't have to tell me that, it is the claim of sayed rohani.

He isn't my marji. I have disagreements with him on a number of issues, and i consider Khamanei (ha) , Fadlullah r.a, Sistani (ha), Khomeini (r.a) to be far more logical and correct on this issue.

Well I've only just started my journey with shia books but I'm sure rohani wouldn't claim that if it was a lie, since he is regarded as a major emulation figure.

Again, he has maybe erred, or made a mistake in this.

I have given you names, fatwa's, and clear evidence.

Rouhani isn't hujjah on me, and the marji's i have listed to you (the other ones) are far bigger sources of emulation.

Reply 28

OP

Original post by Al-farhan

Well for the the sake of your FAQ thread it would have been better to just leave this thread with the faqs and answer my questions (which aren't faq, rather farhan-QS :tongue:

) so your faq will sadly be derailed and lose its purpose with my questions

Brother, the FAQ isn't designed to be the topic of the entire thread. The thread is meant to be any question about shia islam - including yours.

The FAQ is designed for people who want to ask questions, to read the first few pages first, to get some understanding and have some common misconceptions cleared, so time can be used on this thread to answer follow ups, or more nuanced questions or to clarify anything.

Reply 29

OP

Original post by Al-farhan

I think we can close up the topic of tatbir with the following (my understanding so far):
It is an issue of ikhtilaf among shia's and some agree with it and believe in it strongly while others don't.

I would say this isn't the correct statement to use.

There is a difference of opinion, but few scholars would believe in it strongly in the words you have put it as. You then have scholars who permit it , but under strict conditions. You then have scholars who have no opinion on it, for or against, and you have scholars past and present who are very, strongly against it.

These aren't fringe scholars either, the latter group comprises of the likes of Khomeini r.a, Mutahari r.a, Makarem Shirazi r.a, Khamanei r.a, Fadlullah r.a, who are heavy weights.

Suffice to say, there are more who are strongly opposed to it, than those who firmly are for it and encourage it. You have groups in the middle who do not encourage it, and consider it impermissible in a number of cases and permissible under strict conditions in others. Or those who hold no opinion.

So yes, there is a difference in opinion on this matter, and there is nothing wrong with that. A minority of shia's perform this act, i won't deny, and it is slowly dying out with more and more speaking up and out, and people realizing the harm it causes, especially with the advent of the internet.

It has no basis in shia theology, and like it creeped in due to culture, in recent times, it will die out and be even more of a minority practise, than it is. The media ofcourse, will still put up the bloody images.

(edited 7 years ago)

Reply 30

OP

Original post by Al-farhan

Well this is a very interesting post, as I have been reading in the fatwa book of a major shia imam about this topic.
The marji'i is Sayyid Sadeq Rohani, i hope you have heard of him or know him. Since you said you don't know many of the major shia scholars I mention.

Again, the term 'major scholar' is very subjective. Some websites who want to cherry pick controversial quotes, often elevate and exaggerate the status of a scholar or author, rightly or wrongly, in order to strengthen their points. I'm not saying you have done this, or anything like that brother, but just to keep in mind, it happens.

With Sadiq Rohani i had heard of him, yes.

The Sheikh Mufeeds , The Saduq's , the Toosi's, the Tabatabai's, Khoi's, Khomeini's of course, are held highly.

(edited 7 years ago)

Reply 31

Original post by Tawheed

Ayatullah Khamanei - arguably again, one of the most influential shia marji's today:

"Everyone follows his own denomination and shows respect for his beliefs and moral values. This is a right that everyone deserves. However, respect for one's beliefs does not mean that one could offend against others' moral values. We all believe in Islam, the Holy Prophet (s.w.a.), and Kaaba. We all say prayers, go to Hajj, and believe in jihad and Sharia. The matters over which we disagree are much less than those we agree upon. The enemies of Islam are trying to foment schism among Shia and Sunni Muslims not only in Iran, but also in all parts of the Islamic world."

"Those who provoke Sunni Muslims against the Shia and Shia Muslims against the Sunnis support neither the Shia nor the Sunni. They are opposed to Islam. "Compassionate among themselves" [the Holy Quran 48: 29]. This means that Muslims should act kindly and mercifully towards one another.

He's also arguably the biggest sunni Muslim murderer on the planet too. His barrel bombs, iranian funded shia militias (well known for their massacres of sunnis), his causing of corruption upon the earth... are all very well known.

I pray Allah holds gives him severe punishment for supporting Assad and the Russians against the Muslims.

How can you use a quote by him on love and mercy and expect people to buy it? It's like giving a hitler love quote to a jew.

Reply 32

Original post by Tawheed

Furthermore, in ahadith such as in Al Kafi, Lana'h does not mean 'curse ' per say, but it is a dua, to ask Allah (azwj) to remove his mercy from those who oppressed Rasullah s.a.w and the family of Rasullah s.a.w

Questions (you've repeatedly avoided answering this).

1) Can people get into Jannah without Allah's mercy? Yes/no.

2) Now as you ask ask Allah to remove mercy from Abu Bakr (ra) and Umar (ra), you are actually asking Allah to send them to hell? Yes/no.

I prefer quick yes/no responses Tawheed as they are indeed very straight forward questions :h:

(edited 7 years ago)

Reply 33

OP

Original post by Scythia

x

I'll answer your questions dear brother/ sister, inshAllah, if you let me know which user you are ? This is a new account no?

(edited 7 years ago)

Reply 34

Original post by Tawheed

I'll answer your questions dear brother and sister, inshAllah, if you let me know which user you are ? This is a new account no?

Without trying to sound rude, you've repeatedly avoided answering some of the questions above so can you just answer them? I think it's been a good year of avoiding :tongue:

No I'm sorry I'm not letting you know but someone may PM you and spill the beans anyway if you're lucky.

Now my questions please, yes/no responses will do, that's all I want and need.

Original post by Scythia

Questions (you've repeatedly avoided answering this).

1) Can people get into Jannah without Allah's mercy? Yes/no.

2) Now as you ask ask Allah to remove mercy from Abu Bakr (ra) and Umar (ra), you are actually asking Allah to send them to hell? Yes/no.

I prefer quick yes/no responses Tawheed as they are indeed very straight forward questions :h:

Reply 35

OP

Original post by Scythia

Without trying to sound rude, you've repeatedly avoided answering some of the questions above so can you just answer them? I think it's been a good year of avoiding :tongue:

No I'm sorry I'm not letting you know but someone may PM you and spill the beans anyway if you're lucky.

Now my questions please, yes/no responses will do, that's all I want and need.

It would help if i knew who you are, so i know where our discussions have so far gone and i can better relate to where you are coming from.

Reply 36

Original post by Tawheed

It would help if i knew who you are, so i know where our discussions have so far gone and i can better relate to where you are coming from.

It won't. Ibn Fulaan posed similar questions to you and you then you avoided the conversation for months (the discussion was with him, not me).

Now please stop making me repeat myself and please just stop avoiding the questions. A quick yes/no is all I'm asking for.

Original post by Scythia

Questions (you've repeatedly avoided answering this).

1) Can people get into Jannah without Allah's mercy? Yes/no.

2) Now as you ask ask Allah to remove mercy from Abu Bakr (ra) and Umar (ra), you are actually asking Allah to send them to hell? Yes/no.

I prefer quick yes/no responses Tawheed as they are indeed very straight forward questions :h:

Reply 37

OP

Original post by Scythia

It won't. Ibn Fulaan posed similar questions to you and you then you avoided the conversation for months (the discussion was with him, not me).

Now please stop making me repeat myself and please just stop avoiding the questions. A quick yes/no is all I'm asking for.

If you are willing to give me your user name, i will answer your questions.

The whole point is, you claim to have discussed this all with me before, and i need to know who you are as it would greatly help me in my approach.

Reply 38

Original post by Tawheed

If you are willing to give me your user name, i will answer your questions.

The whole point is, you claim to have discussed this all with me before, and i need to know who you are as it would greatly help me in my approach.

That's a pretty lame excuse to give in order to avoid answering my questions.

I said Ibn Fulaan discussed this with you and you avoided the questions in that conversation. And now I pose similar questions to you and you avoid answering them again...

Original post by Scythia

Questions (you've repeatedly avoided answering this).

1) Can people get into Jannah without Allah's mercy? Yes/no.

2) Now as you ask ask Allah to remove mercy from Abu Bakr (ra) and Umar (ra), you are actually asking Allah to send them to hell? Yes/no.

I prefer quick yes/no responses Tawheed as they are indeed very straight forward questions :h:

One last time (for today). Please answer, preferably Yes/no. Thanks :smile:

(edited 7 years ago)

Reply 39