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Reply 180
0404343m
There is absolutely no flaming way that Leeds and Liverpool are 'behind' Manchester and Nottingham, and so on.


I've just given up now. I tend to ignore :p:

I think it needs to be made more concise. So without trivialising the point: -

The difference between the vast majority of Russell Group (and 1994 Group) universities is **** all.

They all have their excellent, good, average and poor departments. All produce quality research, have good facilities and good standards of students.
Reply 181
Basically, yes. They're useful as a general guide, but not more than that.
Reply 182
In terms of grades, Oxbridge. But in terms of just generally talented people, you can find them anywhere.
Complex Simplicity
No. The UK universities, unlike their US counter parts, do not offer places at university based on full sports scholarships. Whilst there are anomalous exceptions, e.g. the former New Zealand Rugby captain's admittance into Oxford, these cases are so exception that they aren't even worth noting. UK universities put all their emphasis on academic brilliance as well as suitability to the course. Oxbridge in particular focus on admitting highly gifted individuals who'll lead their subject area in future. This is the reason why many people achieve perfect grades yet fail the interview (in addition to the high applicants).

So in short, there are likely to be a greater proportion of naturally gifted students at Oxbridge than Ivies as all get in through academic merit; moreover Oxbridge puts on emphasis specifically in admitting the exceptionally gifted.


You do realise that the Ivy League, despite being an academic conference, doesn't give out any sports scholarships at all? Lots of other American Universities do, including some very good ones like Duke which spend ridiculous money on sport, but the Ivy League will not pay anyone to be there for sporting purposes.
Reply 184
On a per subject basis, they at least give a basic idea of each university's performance. However, on a per university basis, the results can be largely irrelevant to prospective students. Would a Law student care about how good their university's Engineering courses are, for example? The central focus of a student examining the league tables should be to ascertain what they can about the individual subject rankings. The Times Good University Guide's editor wrote an article on that very topic, I believe.
py0alb
The only two things you should look at are:

The % of graduates from the specific course you are thinking of applying to that get a 1st or 2:1 : that should give you a rough idea of how good the course is at getting you up to a decent standard.

The average grade intake in that course - simply to see if you have a shot of getting in. It tells you nothing else of any use about the institution.

Even this should only be used to make a shortlist of 10-12 unis that you then think about applying to. The most important thing is whether you like the university when you visit, and whether the course covers topics that you are particularly interested in.

Nothing else is relevent.


what about grade inflation?
Good for boasting if you go to a "top 10" - but nothing else. They're all different anyway.
Somebody posted a couple of really good articles about league tables a couple of weeks ago. I cant find them now though, basically the answer is YES.
Reply 188
Throughout my ucas application I was usinf the Times onlin guide, Iwas kust wondering which guide did you use because every guide is so different.

I found one where Swansea Uni(don't know how?) was first whilst Oxford appears to top most other.
Reply 189
My school's guide.
The one where Imperial comes highest, obviously.
the TSR one.
Reply 192
infernalcradle
the TSR one.


give me the link
jo62
give me the link


He was playing wit you man
Reply 194
jakemittle
He was playing wit you man


knob
Reply 195
jo62
Throughout my ucas application I was usinf the Times onlin guide, Iwas kust wondering which guide did you use because every guide is so different.


There isn't one and because every guide can differ signifiantly does show that you can use statistics to prove almost everything.

People will just name the league tables which most conform to their already pre-conceived notions of how universities should rank. The Guardian, as it ranks former polytechnics as well as much smaller universities above Russell Group unis usually receives criticism. It has its faults and I don't agree with the criteria it uses. But then I don't like the others.

Even though they can produce such different results they are all "right" and accurate, in that they rank universities accurately according to the compiler's own criteria and weighting.
jakemittle
He was playing wit you man


no, there is a TSR one somewhere,...I remember seeing it...no idea where it is though....
Your own one, after you've looked at the courses, facilities, accommodation, location and entry requirements on the websites/prospectuses of about 10 universities and visited 2 or 3 open days.
Reply 198
jo62

I found one where Swansea Uni(don't know how?) was first whilst Oxford appears to top most other.


I'm guessing that was Push's own ranking (which I think is a little tongue-in-cheek). Publibsed to show how you can use statistics to show what you like.
Reply 199
IlexAquifolium
League Tables: A User’s Guide

What do they Measure?



As aforementioned, the precise metrics and weighting used will differ from table to table. Subject tables will simply combine these numbers, and the ‘university league table’ will just average the subject data. However, common themes include:

The proportion of graduates with ‘good’ degrees, which is to say, 2.1s and firsts. The national average is around 50% 2.1s and 10% firsts, so the degree to which a particular course deviates from this can indicate one of several things: excellent (or above average) teaching; a particularly talented crop of undergraduates; or a course in which it is more easy than average to do well.
Entry standards, usually in the form of the average UCAS points total for the previous year’s starting cohort. This gives an indication of A level / IB performance and indirectly, the competitiveness of the entry process (since a very popular course with few places is likely to be able to pick more qualified candidates). Combinations of these two indicators result in the Value Added Scores used by some tables (such as the guardian).
Staff numbers, in the form of a staff : student ratio, used as a rough-and-ready proxy for the amount of ‘student attention’. This unfortunately tells you bugger all about what it’s actually like to be taught in a department, since many staff may not teach undergraduates at all.
Staff research scores, usually derived from the last RAE (Research Assessment Exercise). The RAE is produced by the government as a means of judging research quality in order to dole out funding. Being at a department with cutting-edge researchers can be an excellent experience, but how much undergraduates will have to do with the research is somewhat unpredictable.
Teaching scores and student satisfaction, previously measured through the Teaching Quality Assessment (TQA), now increasingly being phased out in favour of the National Student Survey (NSS). The latter is a really excellent means of getting an insight into the student experience, and the results can be found on http://www.unistats.com. This is probably the only insight into what it’s actually like to study at a department, and the results are often surprisingly at odds with other league table indicators.
Graduate employment. Universities follow up their graduates six months after graduation to find out what they have gone on to do, which is then published on unistats. League tables averages all this information (which on unistats is classified by job type) into one score, often out of 10 as an indicator of ‘graduate prospects’. The other piece of information used is average starting salary. Remember though that these surveys are conducted six months after graduation and so may not be representative of future earning potential.
University spending, On the face of this is a useful and good indicator of the amount of care universities take over their students’ facilities. However universities have started diverting funds from other worthy causes (like outreach programmes or scholarships, which are arguably better uses for their money but don’t count in league tables) into things that are included, like new computers, or gyms.


Maybe you should add the "value added score".

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