Will girls not like me because I'm not a Feminist?
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Original post by Mancini
Equal recognition for what? What exactly are you talking about there?
Hahah, for example, female scientists. It's so true that the most accomplished figures in history have been male! But my sort of feminism is like woo girls are as capable and awesome as men.
I'm female and I'm not a feminist. I admit that men are stronger and faster than women and tend to be able to separate emotion from work (generally speaking). We should all be treated equally because God loves us all the same but if both men and women had the same qualities and could do exactly the same things then there would only be one gender and not two.
Original post by RebeccaMelody
Hahah, for example, female scientists. It's so true that the most accomplished figures in history have been male! But my sort of feminism is like woo girls are as capable and awesome as men.
Sure some girls are capable as are some guys but I don't think anyone is intentionally attempting to stop girls succeeding it just happens that in life as a girl you will make different choices. From studies done they usually find women want more flexibility in work and this is women's own choice not some oppressive patriachy forcibg decisions on them. Due to these choices they make some women cry oppression and wish to change the landscape and rules if work to suiy them, this would not work with the majority of employers. Education wise there is nothing stopping a girl in a western country who is intelligent enough to reach her goals.
This woo thing you do just cracks me up, I know you are young though so I'll just smile
woo we are all capable if we put the work in.
Original post by ChancedTravels
Feminism = belief that men and women are equal. If you aren't a feminist, you believe women are worth less than you are. If your girlfriend isn't a feminist, she isn't well educated in what it actually means.
Twitter feminism isn't the be all and end all. Being a feminist does NOT mean you hate men. That is the opposite, because feminism is about concern for equality of all genders - including male/trans/non-binary.
You are young and you will realise that this was a really dumb thing to ask in a couple of years when you are in the real world. Equally, those girls will stop thinking that 'man hating' is ever going to be a progressive movement.
If you aren't a feminist, you shouldn't have a girlfriend, because no woman deserves to be with a man who thinks her life is worth less than his.
Twitter feminism isn't the be all and end all. Being a feminist does NOT mean you hate men. That is the opposite, because feminism is about concern for equality of all genders - including male/trans/non-binary.
You are young and you will realise that this was a really dumb thing to ask in a couple of years when you are in the real world. Equally, those girls will stop thinking that 'man hating' is ever going to be a progressive movement.
If you aren't a feminist, you shouldn't have a girlfriend, because no woman deserves to be with a man who thinks her life is worth less than his.
Sorry, but your definition here is incorrect.
The belief that men and women are equal is egalitarianism. Feminism is the
advocacy of women's rights and women's empowerment. The difference is not overt for feminists, however, in the modern world it is quite important.
Traditionally, the empowerment of women WAS equality. However, in the modern world, the inequalities faced by women AND men is rather more subtle and the broad based ideology of feminism just is not appropriate.
Also, to assume that people who refuse to label themselves feminist are somehow anti-women is idiocy at its most chronic and something that seems to afflict many feminists. There is a good reason why people refuse to label themselves feminists and that is because the modern generation of feminists are authoritarian nutcases who don't understand what sexism and prejudice are, but equate their own disappointments onto the world. You being afraid at night is not patriarchy or sexism. It is just about you, as an individual, being afraid at night. That is your problem.
Original post by Drunk Punx
Doesn't it go against the definition of feminism?
I don't see how wanting equality can be a bad thing, but I can see the problems in not ascribing to a movement that wants equality.
Whether you call yourself a feminist or not, unless you're an out-and-out bigot everyone's a feminist at one level or another.
I don't see how wanting equality can be a bad thing, but I can see the problems in not ascribing to a movement that wants equality.
Whether you call yourself a feminist or not, unless you're an out-and-out bigot everyone's a feminist at one level or another.
This is the thing we are all, well lets say all progressive thinking people who want equality for all, we are all for equality.
We are are just not all for feminism as the mechanism that achieves equality.
Feminism already achieved its goals now it's over reaching feminism is now like a friend you invited to your house that does not know when to leave.
I know plenty of girls who are for equality but do not support feminism because they see themselves that is as one-sided. At the same time these girls are no push over if you say something discriminatory they will put you on the spot, which is right and you see they do not describe themselves as feminist.
I seriously wonder why feminists are so strongly forceful that everyone ascribes to their label. I know the answer myself but I want to hear from you.
Why do you go around forcing people to describe themselves as you wish them to be?
To be a non feminist does not mean you are not for gender equality. It means you see the negativity which feminism promotes in society and wish not to be a part of it.
Same if you were for less immigration but do not want to come under the label ukip. At it's core feminism is political ideology so ukip is a good comparison.
(edited 8 years ago)
As long as you believe in gender equality then I don't see what the problem with dating you is
I don't think it will matter at all. In fact I was worried about the exact same thing. One of my uni lecturers even did a poll for people on my course and it turned out that very few identified as feminists but all of them believed in gender equality (and this course is Modern Languages which is about 2/3 girls).
Original post by Teaddict
Sorry, but your definition here is incorrect.
The belief that men and women are equal is egalitarianism. Feminism is the
advocacy of women's rights and women's empowerment. The difference is not overt for feminists, however, in the modern world it is quite important.
Traditionally, the empowerment of women WAS equality. However, in the modern world, the inequalities faced by women AND men is rather more subtle and the broad based ideology of feminism just is not appropriate.
Also, to assume that people who refuse to label themselves feminist are somehow anti-women is idiocy at its most chronic and something that seems to afflict many feminists. There is a good reason why people refuse to label themselves feminists and that is because the modern generation of feminists are authoritarian nutcases who don't understand what sexism and prejudice are, but equate their own disappointments onto the world. You being afraid at night is not patriarchy or sexism. It is just about you, as an individual, being afraid at night. That is your problem.
The belief that men and women are equal is egalitarianism. Feminism is the
advocacy of women's rights and women's empowerment. The difference is not overt for feminists, however, in the modern world it is quite important.
Traditionally, the empowerment of women WAS equality. However, in the modern world, the inequalities faced by women AND men is rather more subtle and the broad based ideology of feminism just is not appropriate.
Also, to assume that people who refuse to label themselves feminist are somehow anti-women is idiocy at its most chronic and something that seems to afflict many feminists. There is a good reason why people refuse to label themselves feminists and that is because the modern generation of feminists are authoritarian nutcases who don't understand what sexism and prejudice are, but equate their own disappointments onto the world. You being afraid at night is not patriarchy or sexism. It is just about you, as an individual, being afraid at night. That is your problem.
Original post by Mancini
This is the thing we are all well we say lets say all progressive thinking people who want equality for all we are all for equality.
We are are just not all for feminism as the mechanism that achieves equality.
Feminism already achieved its goals now it's over reaching feminism is now like a friend you invited to your house that does not know when to leave.
I know plenty of girls who are for equality but do not support feminism because they see themselves that is us one-sided. At the same time these girls are no push over if you say something discriminatory they will put you on the spot, which is right and you see they do not describe themselves as feminist.
I seriously wonder why feminists are so strongly forceful that everyone ascribes to their label. I know the answer myself but I want to hear from you.
Why do you go around forcing people to describe themselves as you wish them to be?
To be a non feminist does not mean you are not for gender equality. It means you see the negativity which feminism promotes in society and wish not to be a part of it.
Same if you were for less immigration but do not want to come under the label ukip. At it's core feminism is political ideology so ukip is a good comparison.
We are are just not all for feminism as the mechanism that achieves equality.
Feminism already achieved its goals now it's over reaching feminism is now like a friend you invited to your house that does not know when to leave.
I know plenty of girls who are for equality but do not support feminism because they see themselves that is us one-sided. At the same time these girls are no push over if you say something discriminatory they will put you on the spot, which is right and you see they do not describe themselves as feminist.
I seriously wonder why feminists are so strongly forceful that everyone ascribes to their label. I know the answer myself but I want to hear from you.
Why do you go around forcing people to describe themselves as you wish them to be?
To be a non feminist does not mean you are not for gender equality. It means you see the negativity which feminism promotes in society and wish not to be a part of it.
Same if you were for less immigration but do not want to come under the label ukip. At it's core feminism is political ideology so ukip is a good comparison.
Original post by Mancini
So called feminists don't know the origins of their movement and how subversively dangerous it is to society. At best feminism it is a political tool of control not connected to the goals of equality at all.
beautiful posts my sirs!
*would rep, but i ran out :/*
how's this for rep? : +98274208743082808875
looks like i didn't even need to come here at all looool.
Original post by Mancini
At best feminism it is a political tool of control
I disagree and I think that it is ironic that you think that. Indeed, above you talked about how women make different 'choices' but seemingly misunderstand that those choices are forced and maintained by a culture of containment - one that disciplines any attempt at becoming unbound from a certain bondage to gender roles in this case.
I don't want to appear confrontational if it's coming across like that. Rather, I'd like to help you to understand the truth of the matter. It is not the feminists who seek dominion over everything; they seek equality. But as I've mentioned, whenever some marginalised group like that attempts to question the status quo they're often shot down for having radical points of view (radical insofar as opposed to cultural orthodoxy).
Much of the confusion in this thread stems from different definitions of feminism.
Feminism can (in some people's eyes, but not mine) simply refer to ensuring legal equality between the sexes. This is largely achieved in the West, but not in Asia, Africa or the Middle-East (predominantly religious [largely but not exclusively Muslim] societies and developing states). However, that's simply being an advocate of human rights - legal humanism, liberalism, legal egalitarianism, etc. This isn't what most people think is distinctive about modern feminism.
Feminism can mean positive action - e.g. using the laws to enforce a perceived equality (e.g. enforcing company directorship quotas; rights over children, etc.). It can mean interfering with people's freedom of association, free choices, and so forth.
It can also mean trying to eradicate what are perceived to be feminine traits (due to the majority of females mannerisms, whether biologically or socially generated) - e.g. females being better at raising children, typical female interests (e.g. fashion, not football).
I think that only the first is the only essential, helpful and noble cause out of those three - providing equal opportunity and equality under the law, rather than trying to manipulate people's associations in a free society. From a personal perspective, rightly or wrongly, there is something deeply unattractive about a person who claims moral outrage all the time. Sure, I hate racists, sexists, etc, but I get on with my life and try to do the best I can to improve my lot with the freedoms I have rather than moan that other people are holding me back.
We live in a world where perceptions matter. Sure, it might not seem fair that females have to shave their armpits whereas guys do not have to care for themselves as much (though I suspect if I didn't shave my beard then I'd look homeless); but the fact is, most guys will think you're a disgusting mong if your don't shave. You have a right not to shave; but no right for society to think you're attractive. There's nothing 'unfair' about it, insofar as nobody is doing you an injustice, unless you think you have an inherent right to sexual attention.
You also have no right to crash into somebody's "men-only" party, but you have every right to think that the owner is an ******** (and I would agree). You even have a right to set up your own party and allow whomever you want into your home. Or your own company, and pay yourself and your colleagues whatever you want so long as you have the skills to run a profitable company.
I suspect the OP is a feminist to the extent that he agrees that females are humans and therefore entitled to the same human rights as men; but "feminism" often means much more than simply that, and a lot of the claims made by many feminists are at least reasonably contestable by fair-minded people who are not themselves sexist.
OP, since most people coudn't care less about these sorts of issues but are more interested in what DVD to buy from Asda tonight, I wouldn't stress too much.
Feminism can (in some people's eyes, but not mine) simply refer to ensuring legal equality between the sexes. This is largely achieved in the West, but not in Asia, Africa or the Middle-East (predominantly religious [largely but not exclusively Muslim] societies and developing states). However, that's simply being an advocate of human rights - legal humanism, liberalism, legal egalitarianism, etc. This isn't what most people think is distinctive about modern feminism.
Feminism can mean positive action - e.g. using the laws to enforce a perceived equality (e.g. enforcing company directorship quotas; rights over children, etc.). It can mean interfering with people's freedom of association, free choices, and so forth.
It can also mean trying to eradicate what are perceived to be feminine traits (due to the majority of females mannerisms, whether biologically or socially generated) - e.g. females being better at raising children, typical female interests (e.g. fashion, not football).
I think that only the first is the only essential, helpful and noble cause out of those three - providing equal opportunity and equality under the law, rather than trying to manipulate people's associations in a free society. From a personal perspective, rightly or wrongly, there is something deeply unattractive about a person who claims moral outrage all the time. Sure, I hate racists, sexists, etc, but I get on with my life and try to do the best I can to improve my lot with the freedoms I have rather than moan that other people are holding me back.
We live in a world where perceptions matter. Sure, it might not seem fair that females have to shave their armpits whereas guys do not have to care for themselves as much (though I suspect if I didn't shave my beard then I'd look homeless); but the fact is, most guys will think you're a disgusting mong if your don't shave. You have a right not to shave; but no right for society to think you're attractive. There's nothing 'unfair' about it, insofar as nobody is doing you an injustice, unless you think you have an inherent right to sexual attention.
You also have no right to crash into somebody's "men-only" party, but you have every right to think that the owner is an ******** (and I would agree). You even have a right to set up your own party and allow whomever you want into your home. Or your own company, and pay yourself and your colleagues whatever you want so long as you have the skills to run a profitable company.
I suspect the OP is a feminist to the extent that he agrees that females are humans and therefore entitled to the same human rights as men; but "feminism" often means much more than simply that, and a lot of the claims made by many feminists are at least reasonably contestable by fair-minded people who are not themselves sexist.
OP, since most people coudn't care less about these sorts of issues but are more interested in what DVD to buy from Asda tonight, I wouldn't stress too much.
(edited 8 years ago)
Original post by ChickenMadness
I am not a feminist, I always make fun of feminists in real life, I have a girlfriend (who is not a feminist) and always get girls flirting with me lol. I get girls coming up to me at parties making fun of feminists randomly as conversation starters (srs).
Why would you want to date a feminist as a man anyway? You're literally dating someone who hates you. It's like dating a racist who hates you because of your skin colour lol.
Why would you want to date a feminist as a man anyway? You're literally dating someone who hates you. It's like dating a racist who hates you because of your skin colour lol.
You are very lucky to be in such a position, for feminists believing in equality just isn't enough.
don't see why not
Original post by ChickenMadness
Are you on a psychology course or something? lol. Most normal girls aren't feminists.
Thank you for reassuring me. Having lived with a feminist for a year I've realized that they are just too intense for me. Non feminist girls are more laid back in my experience.
Original post by ChickenMadness
I'm not a feminist lol. I support equal rights for everyone. So by default I'm not a feminist.
I think fathers should have rights etc. etc. Something feminists fight strongly against
I think fathers should have rights etc. etc. Something feminists fight strongly against
Ahh, I see our old friend Mr. Generalisation is back.
That's simply not true, as there are feminists who adhere to the "equality for all" platform that feminism was founded on, and as such fight for the equality for all, including fathers right.
Someone on TSR posted some links about it a while back that refuted the claim that feminists don't care about fathers right but I've since misplaced them. However, they do exist.
The problem that does exist is that there's quite a bit of apathy towards fathers rights (or mens rights in general) within the feminist movement as a whole, with only a minority of feminists caring about it (or at least, that's how it seems. The only evidence I can find for this apathy is the amount of information about fathers rights compared to the amount of information about, say, the supposed pay gap. The ratio tilts unfairly in favour of the female side of things, something that does amuse me considering feminism is supposed to be all inclusive and all-equal).
A lot of work needs to be done within for the feminist movement, but remarks like "lol feminists don't care about men" does nothing but hinder the progress that needs to be made.
Original post by Mancini
I seriously wonder why feminists are so strongly forceful that everyone ascribes to their label. I know the answer myself but I want to hear from you.
I seriously wonder why feminists are so strongly forceful that everyone ascribes to their label. I know the answer myself but I want to hear from you.
This may slightly contradict what I said earlier, but it's not about "forcing people to ascribe to a label". If men had to put up with what many women have to put up with then we'd feel a lot more sympathetic to the feminist cause.
You could make the argument that empathy is the most powerful tool when it comes to connecting with people, so that's an angle that feminists work at.
Fact is, just as women have their ****, men have their **** too. But as I've already said to CM, sometimes mens **** flies under the feminist radar, and it's something that has to be addressed if the overall goal of feminism is indeed equality for all.
As far as the "strongly forceful" bit goes, you could easily argue that if you had to put up with the amount of misinformed bull**** that people talk about on the Internet surrounding a movement that you feel quite passionate about, you'd have to stress upon your point at certain times too.
What really gets me the most is when people say there's no need for feminism any more.
- Tell that to the women (if you can call them that) who get married off when they're 14 and have to go through FGM because of some bat**** religious ceremony with no logical grounding,
- Tell that to the women who get raped and are then told that it's their fault they got raped (according to the news, this happens quite a lot in India).
- Tell that to the woman whose husband beats her because his fragile traditionalist world is getting upset by his dinner not being on the table when he gets back from work.
But it's cool, who needs feminism anyway?
"What I meant was, we don't need Feminism in the West".
When you get raped and the police/courts don't take it seriously because you were wearing a dress and had a little bit to drink, then you can come back and say that we don't need feminism. Until then, we need it. And we need it because **** like that happens.
(The above bit isn't something you've said, it's merely a common response).
Why do you go around forcing people to describe themselves as you wish them to be?
I don't. If feminism is supposed to be about equality for all sexes/genders, and egalitarianism is equality for all including age, race, sex, etc, then the gap between the two is relatively non-existent. Ergo, they are largely one and the same.
The many branches of feminism then split it up (women's rights in the workplace, representation in the media, social/political rights, etc etc) thus adding speciality to it.
For someone to say that they're an egalitarian but not a feminist is a tad odd seeing as one begets the other. Feminism is merely a specialisation of egalitarianism.
I'm not going to sit here all day and defend feminism because there are a lot of areas with it that I don't necessarily agree with (mostly rad-fem ****), but the generalisations that surface on here about it do amuse me.
(edited 8 years ago)
Original post by Drunk Punx
Ahh, I see our old friend Mr. Generalisation is back.
That's simply not true, as there are feminists who adhere to the "equality for all" platform that feminism was founded on, and as such fight for the equality for all, including fathers right.
Someone on TSR posted some links about it a while back that refuted the claim that feminists don't care about fathers right but I've since misplaced them. However, they do exist.
The problem that does exist is that there's quite a bit of apathy towards fathers rights (or mens rights in general) within the feminist movement as a whole, with only a minority of feminists caring about it (or at least, that's how it seems. The only evidence I can find for this apathy is the amount of information about fathers rights compared to the amount of information about, say, the supposed pay gap. The ratio tilts unfairly in favour of the female side of things, something that does amuse me considering feminism is supposed to be all inclusive and all-equal).
A lot of work needs to be done within for the feminist movement, but remarks like "lol feminists don't care about men" does nothing but hinder the progress that needs to be made.
That's simply not true, as there are feminists who adhere to the "equality for all" platform that feminism was founded on, and as such fight for the equality for all, including fathers right.
Someone on TSR posted some links about it a while back that refuted the claim that feminists don't care about fathers right but I've since misplaced them. However, they do exist.
The problem that does exist is that there's quite a bit of apathy towards fathers rights (or mens rights in general) within the feminist movement as a whole, with only a minority of feminists caring about it (or at least, that's how it seems. The only evidence I can find for this apathy is the amount of information about fathers rights compared to the amount of information about, say, the supposed pay gap. The ratio tilts unfairly in favour of the female side of things, something that does amuse me considering feminism is supposed to be all inclusive and all-equal).
A lot of work needs to be done within for the feminist movement, but remarks like "lol feminists don't care about men" does nothing but hinder the progress that needs to be made.
If they want equal rights for everyone they arent a feminist
Let's clarify:
Misogyny: the belief that men are better than women.
Misandry: the belief that women are better than men (which, unfortunately, people get confused with feminism).
Feminism: the belief that both genders should be equal.
Feminism is on the same lines as egalitarianism, but it focuses more on gender and so is classed as its own separate thing. Someone who is a feminist (as opposed to a misandrist) opposes issues facing men as well as women (such as hyper-masculinity in the media, the notion that men cannot show their emotions, and the fact that fathers find it harder to gain custody of their children based on the fact that they are men).
Feminism has been tainted by those uninformed people who like to shout on social media, and historically by male politicians who were scared that their jobs were being threatened by women.
You may not identify as a feminist, but if you oppose gender disparity, then by definition you are one. You don't need to call yourself a feminist, but as long as you treat all genders equally, then you won't have a problem.
Posted from TSR Mobile
Misogyny: the belief that men are better than women.
Misandry: the belief that women are better than men (which, unfortunately, people get confused with feminism).
Feminism: the belief that both genders should be equal.
Feminism is on the same lines as egalitarianism, but it focuses more on gender and so is classed as its own separate thing. Someone who is a feminist (as opposed to a misandrist) opposes issues facing men as well as women (such as hyper-masculinity in the media, the notion that men cannot show their emotions, and the fact that fathers find it harder to gain custody of their children based on the fact that they are men).
Feminism has been tainted by those uninformed people who like to shout on social media, and historically by male politicians who were scared that their jobs were being threatened by women.
You may not identify as a feminist, but if you oppose gender disparity, then by definition you are one. You don't need to call yourself a feminist, but as long as you treat all genders equally, then you won't have a problem.
Posted from TSR Mobile
Feminism is a movement which promotes equality for all genders by focusing on the ones that are disenfranchised, ie. women and various non-binary classifications. Logically, if a group seeks equality, it seeks equal footing with equivalent parties. In this case, feminism wants all genders to be equal by narrowing or eliminating the gap that makes them unequal.
Do you need to be an actual feminist supporter or ally? In my opinion, no. But to have a healthy, happy and fulfilling relationship with someone, you need to understand that both of you are equal partners with an equal voice and say in all matters. In relationships, the person better suited for any given task should do it. The stronger person should move the couch. The better cook should prepare food. The better organizer should plan events and appointments. Of course, everything needs to be consensual and transparent. The idea is to strengthen and bolster one another and revel in each other's unique traits and not to be limited by outdated gender roles.
Treat your partner with respect and difference, show them kindness and understanding and be flexible and able to make compromises. Ultimately, it doesn't matter how you decide to brand yourself but how do you treat other people. And that I think, is what really matters in the end.
Do you need to be an actual feminist supporter or ally? In my opinion, no. But to have a healthy, happy and fulfilling relationship with someone, you need to understand that both of you are equal partners with an equal voice and say in all matters. In relationships, the person better suited for any given task should do it. The stronger person should move the couch. The better cook should prepare food. The better organizer should plan events and appointments. Of course, everything needs to be consensual and transparent. The idea is to strengthen and bolster one another and revel in each other's unique traits and not to be limited by outdated gender roles.
Treat your partner with respect and difference, show them kindness and understanding and be flexible and able to make compromises. Ultimately, it doesn't matter how you decide to brand yourself but how do you treat other people. And that I think, is what really matters in the end.
I would like to see more 1st World/Western feminists talking about the barbaric treatment of women in Africa and the Middle East, as well as in other less developed countries like India and Pakistan.
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