The Student Room Group

Corbyn links this attack to war abroad

Scroll to see replies

Original post by nexttime
See the above. I never said anything about it being the sole contributor - I questioned those stating that it didn't have any impact at all. Surely you agree that the hundreds of thousands dead and millions of lives ruined at least partially contributes to the success of IS? At least partially contributed to the recruitment for 9/11?

Politicians denounce Islamic extremists all the time what planet are you on.


They denounce extremists but never criticise islam.They always say that its a perversion of the faith or not true muslims.The truth is they are true muslims and their interpretation is a valid one.War is just a partial cause the main cause is fundamentalist islsm.These attacks happened before the west got involved in the middle east.
Original post by Tawheed
He is absolutely correct.

Libya is a stunning example. We went in there, bombed it , overthrew Geddafi, and allowed absolute political chaos and takfiri, millitant, terrorist groups to emerge, making it a haven for Alqaeda and ISIS [Daesh]. They produce vast terrorist links, training and indoctrination and brainwashing and a hub for further growth of their vicious ideology.

I could name country after country we have gone to 'give' democracy to.


remember, Iran also supported the overthrow of Gadaffi, labelling the terrorists as 'freedom fighters' at the time.
Original post by Bornblue
When we are discussing terrorist attacks their causes and how to stop them then we must consider all factors.

That includes immigration and refugee policies but it also includes an assessment of our foreign policy and determining where it has harmed not helped us.


As I have said, foreign policy is lose-lose for us. If we had not acted for example then Corbyn and co would be calling us heartless for watching genocide occur.

Short of liberal imperialism, there's no way to win electorally.
A future Conservative government could always pass legislation making it illegal to oppose or campaign against actions by British armed forces in foreign countries, or blame wars for fuelling grievances and terrorist attacks.

This legislation will apply equally to the Leader of the Opposition as it does to the average man on the street.
Original post by Arran90
A future Conservative government could always pass legislation making it illegal to oppose or campaign against actions by British armed forces in foreign countries, or blame wars for fuelling grievances and terrorist attacks.

This legislation will apply equally to the Leader of the Opposition as it does to the average man on the street.


Are you being serious? :-/
Original post by karl pilkington
I think this is gonna completely end Jeremy Corbyn tbh. Firstly it will rightly be seen as cowardly and weak secondly it is not really correct. We don't know the motive of the attackers but 1/they attacked children 2/these attack have taken place all around europe in France Germany Belgium. Countries that weren't involved in foreign wars. Also we should not base our foreign policy on not wanting to upset people, British people should back our troops. The actual reality is that we have an enemy in our country who are more loyal to their faith than to this country. This won't go down well I think and we are heading for one of the worst performances a Labour government has ever had.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/election-2017-40053427


I completely disagree it is NOT correct. The war on terror has gone on for years with many innocents dying. The more innocents that died the more anger the people feel boosting groups like ISIS's agenda. They believe that non-muslims hate Muslims and want get rid of the gray area (Muslims living peacefully with non-muslims). The more people like you believe that Muslims believe in violence the more its fueling their agenda. These terrorists will attack everyone children adults and the elderly. They don't care. However, I have seen a trend of the terrorists who commit atrocities in the west are mostly not practicing (the drink, smoke go clubbing,etc.) Also, MI5 has stated in a leaked report that the more practicing a Muslim is the less likely they are to join such terrorist groups. Also, I'm laughing at us comment because my mosque just yesterday advised us to not congregate outside the mosque late at night as it may disrupt out fellow non Muslims as they have a right over us and it will cause to lose our good deeds never mind call u guys our enemies and kill u. The war on terror has just fuelled Isis agenda that non Muslims hate Muslims as they are killing Muslims (not Isis but innocent civilians). - shown by the latest innocent 10+ innocent people who died from US bomb.
To the people who say that Isis are true Muslims they are not! The Quran has to be learnt in context whereas Isis takes it out of context. I have learnt the Quran and memorised and never once have been taught to hurt kill and maim innocents. I have been taught to spread peace love happiness unity and smile even in times of hardship. I refer to a books written by Sheikh Muhammad Al-Yaqoubi (the direct descendent of the Prophet Muhammad PBUH) called refuting Isis and refuting Isis part two.
To conclude,violence will never rid violence. Hatred will never rid hatred. The only we will be able to fight terrorist stop people getting brainwashed from Isis is to prove to them that we love each other and to live in cohesion. We need to UNITE! (Especially after the atrocity that happened my own home town manchester). Peace and love to all.
Salam alaykum (peace be upon you).
(edited 6 years ago)
Reply 67
Original post by Good bloke
Yup. The west is damned by the left if it intervenes and damned if it doesn't - by the same people!

Corbyn is using the ME situation to further his long-held (and most unrealistic and naive) agenda of worldwide pacificism.


Well he is in good company there with Einstein who was accused of similar naivety re his backing of peace movements , albeit he modified his views in the 1930s. However despite his naivety a number of Einstien's comments re the forming of a Jewish state have, with hindsight, proved remarkably prophetic.

He is certainly not using the ME situation- I am pretty sure this is the last area the Corbyn campaign wanted to be concentrating upon, the economy, benefits and austerity is where he is comfortable, security and terrorism are his weak suit.

Whilst I have little truck with apologists,( we did so they did arguments leave me a little cold) I think one needs to be blind to ignore foreign policy as not having some sway over events, maybe not in a particular instance, maybe a secondary driver of events, a reinforcing of other attitudes,but not something to be ignored.

The defeat of terrorism is not a one size fits all cure, there are plenty of strands of cause and effect; when considering events for a history exam does anyone's answer just say the cause is x or will they not more say the primary cause is x and y and z were contributory?
Original post by ChaoticButterfly
Are you being serious? :-/


We had a similar situation during WW2. Anybody openly opposing actions by the British armed forces in Germany was deemed to be a Hitler supporter and therefore open to being charged with treason.
Original post by Rakas21
These posts sum up the answer, it is an attack on our way of of life.

And that's before we hear Corbyn's explanation for why the Arab Spring would not have occurred in Tunisia before spreading and hence why after doing nothing he would not have whining in this alternative future about the fact that we have allowed Libyan's and Syrian's to be slaughtered.

Those Muslims who blame these things on our foreign policy should be arrested and deported as sympathizers.


Here's a quote from Jeremy Corbyn linking foreign policy to an increased risk of terrorism:

' The decision to go to war was part of a cascade of mistakes that resulted in the careless destruction of a nation, our complicity in the use of torture, our ceding of the moral high ground, and an increased risk of terrorism at home.'

Oh wait, it wasn't Jeremy Corbyn, it was David Davis.

http://www.daviddavismp.com/david-da...-the-iraq-war/
Original post by Bornblue
When we discuss the causes of terrorism and how to prevent it, all factors must be considered.

That includes of course immigration and open borders policies but also failed military interventions which have created instability which allowed extremist groups to thrive.


Let's consider what reasons ISIS has for fighting us, shall we?

They are, in their order of importance:

1. We are disbelievers

2. We have secular, liberal societies that separate religion and state

3. They hate the atheists among us

4. We transgress against Islam [even though we are not Moslems, note]

5. We commit crimes against Moslems

6. We invade Moslem lands

So, our invasions are a factor, but it is at the bottom of the list of factors and they also say:

What’s important to understand here is that although some might argue that your foreign policies are the extent of what drives our hatred, this particular reason for hating you is secondary, hence the reason we addressed it at the end of the above list. The fact is, even if you were to stop bombing us, imprisoning us, torturing us, vilifying us, and usurping our lands, we would continue to hate you because our primary reason for hating you will not cease to exist until you embrace Islam. Even if you were to pay jizyah and live under the authority of Islam in humiliation, we would continue to hate you. No doubt, we would stop fighting you then as we would stop fighting any disbelievers who enter into a covenant with us, but we would not stop hating you.

So, how important do you think the western democracies' foreign policy really is in terms of motivating the terrorists?

Just in case you can't make your mind up, they also say:

Furthermore, just as your disbelief is the primary reason we hate you, your disbelief is the primary reason we fight you, as we have been commanded to fight the disbelievers until they submit to the authority of Islam, either by becoming Muslims, or by paying jizyah for those afforded this option and living in humiliation under the rule of the Muslims.

Note the lack of a peaceful coexistence option. We must be subjugated to them and humiliated by them. And many, of us will not be afforded the jizyah humiliation option, of course.

This is a fight to the death: either western civilisation will be overcome or they will be killed. There is no other outcome.
Theres also evidence in Wiki leaks cables that the CIA and MI6 funded islamic militants to overthrow regimes in the Middle East which acted contrary to our own interest. I don't recall their being any trouble with syria until they refused the US permission to build an oil pipeline through their country. With Gadaffi again he wanted to stop selling oil in US dollars so he got bombed.

People fail to ask themselves the question "Que Bono?".

Its unfortunate and terrible what has happened. None the less Corbyn is right, we've reaped what we've sown and suffering the blowback as a consequence.
Original post by Good bloke
Let's consider what reasons ISIS has for fighting us, shall we?

They are, in their order of importance:

1. We are disbelievers

2. We have secular, liberal societies that separate religion and state

3. They hate the atheists among us

4. We transgress against Islam [even though we are not Moslems, note]

5. We commit crimes against Moslems

6. We invade Moslem lands

So, our invasions are a factor, but it is at the bottom of the list of factors and they also say:

What’s important to understand here is that although some might argue that your foreign policies are the extent of what drives our hatred, this particular reason for hating you is secondary, hence the reason we addressed it at the end of the above list. The fact is, even if you were to stop bombing us, imprisoning us, torturing us, vilifying us, and usurping our lands, we would continue to hate you because our primary reason for hating you will not cease to exist until you embrace Islam. Even if you were to pay jizyah and live under the authority of Islam in humiliation, we would continue to hate you. No doubt, we would stop fighting you then as we would stop fighting any disbelievers who enter into a covenant with us, but we would not stop hating you.

So, how important do you think the western democracies' foreign policy really is in terms of motivating the terrorists?

Just in case you can't make your mind up, they also say:

Furthermore, just as your disbelief is the primary reason we hate you, your disbelief is the primary reason we fight you, as we have been commanded to fight the disbelievers until they submit to the authority of Islam, either by becoming Muslims, or by paying jizyah for those afforded this option and living in humiliation under the rule of the Muslims.

Note the lack of a peaceful coexistence option. We must be subjugated to them and humiliated by them. And many, of us will not be afforded the jizyah humiliation option, of course.

This is a fight to the death: either western civilisation will be overcome or they will be killed. There is no other outcome.


Not doubting any of that. The problem is that it doesn't address the point being made.

Our foreign policy has created huge instability which has allowed such terrorist groups to grow and thrive.

Such groups still believed all that before our military interventions, but they now find much more fertile ground for gaining power and influence.
Original post by Bornblue

Our foreign policy has created huge instability which has allowed such terrorist groups to grow and thrive.


There is a reasonable argument that foreign policy has contributed to instability in Iraq and Afghanistan.

However, Libya, Egypt, Syria, Yemen, Mali, Nigeria, Sudan, Somalia etc have all created their own instability, fomented by Islamists and other revolutionaries, and taken advantage of by regional powers like the Saudis and Iran. You cannot blame the west for the Arab Spring.

.
Original post by Good bloke
There is a reasonable argument that foreign policy has contributed to instability in Iraq and Afghanistan.

However, Libya, Egypt, Syria, Yemen, Mali, Nigeria, Sudan, Somalia etc have all created their own instability, fomented by Islamists and other revolutionaries, and taken advantage of by regional powers like the Saudis and Iran. You cannot blame the west for the Arab Spring.

.


No one is blaming the west for those who commit atrocities. What we are saying is that our foreign policy in places like Iraq and Afghanistan and Lybia, where we have gone in without a real plan for after, has left huge power vacuums which terrorist groups have grabbed.

David Davis and Boris Johnson made the same points as Corbyn yet the Tories seem to be outraged at Corbyn yet not their own MPs.
Original post by Bornblue
Lybia,


But we didn't. The Libyans overthrew Gaddafi. The UN merely protected the innocents from indiscriminate attack by enforcing (at the specific request of the Arab League) a no fly policy and by enforcing an arms embargo, including on revolutionaries.

I would favour leaving them to fight among themselves, but we have a vocal liberal minority who like to stick their oar in and save people from their own folly in the west. This humanitarian help quickly gets reconstrued and misinterpreted and used against us, often by the same people who insisted ion doing it.
Original post by Good bloke
But we didn't. The Libyans overthrew Gaddafi. The UN merely protected the innocents from indiscriminate attack by enforcing (at the specific request of the Arab League) a no fly policy and by enforcing an arms embargo, including on revolutionaries.

I would favour leaving them to fight among themselves, but we have a vocal liberal minority who like to stick their oar in and save people from their own folly in the west. This humanitarian help quickly gets reconstrued and misinterpreted and used against us, often by the same people who insisted ion doing it.


The left most certainly did not insist on such wars. No point removing a horrible leader if what replaces them is more horrible.
Original post by Bornblue
The left most certainly did not insist on such wars. No point removing a horrible leader if what replaces them is more horrible.


As I said, the Libyans themselves insisted on the war, and the Arab League insisted on the no fly zone.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/arab-league-asks-un-for-no-fly-zone-over-libya/2011/03/12/ABoie0R_story.html?utm_term=.7c0a52ffe83f

The left broadly supported the no fly zone, with the HoC majority being 544 in favour, and only 11 Labour MPs voting against.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-12799937
(edited 6 years ago)

Quick Reply

Latest

Trending

Trending