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Reply 80
I think that on the surface it may seem contradictory, but if you look deeper it won't be.
You do have to take into account different interpretations because sometimes they can contradict each other because they are done by people with very different opinions on the world.
Original post by 95000
Do you believe the religion itself has contradictions? Questioning to seek knowledge is different.
(edited 4 years ago)
Reply 81
Original post by the_icy_goldfish
- people do, and its rude. Also the key work is "discussion" NOT "aggression" which is exactly what youre displaying.

And yet all your replies to me so far have included an aggressive tone and personal insults whereas my original posts contained only reasonable criticism of ideology.
Double standards much?
Reply 82
Original post by 95000
For what reason would you say the religion of Allah is not one of peace?

Erm, probably because of all the violence it contains? Not really that difficult.
Reply 83
Original post by aa-k
There are certainly elements of peace within Islam, but it's not really a religion of peace. I see it more as improving one's self to become a better person in general, which is a form of Jihad. Another form of Jihad is physical where you aim to defend or spread the religion using means of religious war and/or violence. Of course, this type of Jihad has to be fully justified, but accepting war in any sense for example is not peaceful. There are also elements of Shariah which aren't very peaceful, such as the death penalty for apostasy.

A refreshingly accurate evaluation.
Reply 84
Original post by -Quava-
You said my figures were not an indication of truth
How is the fact that there are 1.6bn Muslims (also being the fastest growing) not an indication of truth? Clearly, it's a fact- so clearly the fact is true.

The number of followers a religion has is no indication of the truth of that religion. Otherwise you would have to accept that Christianity is Truer than Islam, or that 2000 years ago the Roman pantheon was possibly the truest religion on the planet.
So, numbers are irrelevant, only arguments and evidence.

Annnnddd absolutely adore how you say on other threads how much you disagree with Islam, how much it can't be proven; lol I pulled out facts and figures for you and you came back with verses from the quraan to tell me my fact is wrong and to tell me facts are not an indication of truth but what the quraan says is when you've been debating for so many years on TSR with muslims against Islam lmao

There are no "facts and figures" that prove Islam is true. However, there are facts that prove it to be false.
Reply 85
Original post by PepeTheFroggi
I love how this turned from an 'asking for advice' thread to a 'Islam debate' thread.

Any thread that involves people making claims about the truth of Islam is going to turn into an Islam debate thread, because those claims are almost always demonstrably flawed but the claimants usually refuse to accept that.
Reply 86
Why would the number of Muslims affect their reaction to criticism?

which was right after you fought your argument so maturely and eloquently with another when you said; "You haven't shown anywhere that I'm ignorant on Islamic doctrine, you're just salty and bitter that I don't like Islam, which isn't the same thing."

You may not be "salty and bitter" (although your responses suggest otherwise) but you can't speak for the other 1.599 billion Muslims - and you said "no one is bitter".

So, how about I give you some constructive criticism and advise that you read and process and understand what people are writing in order to argue in a more mature and logical way to stop you looking foolish in the future

Let me just turn down the sensitivity on my Acme Irony-o-Meter™.
Reply 87
Original post by aa-k
Yes, I've read the Qur'an. These verses were revealed when Islam was born. The Muslims at the time of course were in the minority and gained popularity, but gained in enemies too because of that. They had to defend the religion in holy wars, in which these verses and others were revealed. This I suppose is where 'supremacy' comes in, because they had to be supreme in battle and in wars. There is another element of that throughout the Qur'an where it says of course that Muslims are the true believers and others are misguided, although this is pretty standard.

There are Islamic prophecies which state that towards the end of the world, Muslims will be by far the minority and will be mocked like goats by the rest of the population. So, what's the point in 'Islamic Supremacy' if it'll eventually come to nothing anyway?

Yes, there are elements of it here and there but there are also things that can refute it. From me, I wouldn't say that Islam is about supremacy, however if you ask a different Muslim you may get a different answer.

Why do you think that Allah included so many passages that only apply to 7th century Arabia in his perfect, unchangeable, universal guide for all humanity? Perhaps he should have separated it into two sections, like "Establishing Islam" and "Continuing Islam". There, I've just improved the Quran at a stroke.
Reply 88
Original post by the_icy_goldfish
"So what are you saying? That followers of The Religion of Peace™ are likely to get violent with anyone who says otherwise? I know that joke has been around for a while, but it never gets old!"
That was the comment, which WAS making fun of Islam.

The comment was actually making fun of the idea of people basically saying "Kill those who say Islam is not a religion of peace". It's a joke meme. No one really says it (although you kinda did by implying that people are scared to criticise Islam because of the risk of violent reaction). It wasn't making fun of Islam but of an exaggerated idea of the more extreme followers.

If people are joking about something so close to your heart like this, with nothing to back it up except for how the media portrayed us, then that hurts. I will never get violent with ANYONE no matter their beliefs, I hardly have any Muslim friends myself, yet these comments are blindlessly made about me, and people of my religion, for no reason.

No one's ideas or beliefs are beyond criticism, or even ridicule. The best thing you can do is to refute their arguments . So far you have completely failed to do this. Instead you have merely resorted to personal insult and unsupported assertion. In effect, you have merely confirmed the claim that Islam has no evidence or rational argument to support it.
Original post by aa-k
Can't I question my own religion and still remain part of it? Do I not have the right to acknowledge that there may be contradictions in certain areas?

The answer to your question is - we don't know, because they are interpretations based on the opinion of whoever interprets it. This is why there are divides in many major religions because humans don't all agree on the same things. You have to study each verse meticulously, taking into account historical and textual context, in order to get as close as you can the 'true' meaning. This can take years and years which is why some people devote their lives to interpreting scriptures. It's a bit like studying Shakespeare if that makes sense. You cannot read/translate it literally to extract the meaning intended at the time. Similarly, Qur'anic Arabic is hard to read and understand even for those who are fluent in modern Arabic.


It's good that you question your religion, but many blindly follow. I apologise for assuming you were one of those.

It is my view that a divine being would have ensure that their religion would be unambiguous, to make it easier for Muslim to follow his religion. But no matter.

There are verses in the Quran stressing that Allah has made things simple for the believers, but that doesn't seem to be the case at all.
Reply 90
Original post by aa-k
Can you prove to me that that statement about the Qur'an is not true? If so, then I am indeed delusional.

Firstly, the Quran is clearly the work of 7th century Arabs writing for 7th century Arabs. You cannot find a single passage that make more sense as the work of the omni-everything, infallible creator of the universe.
Second, you have just admitted that it is neither perfect nor for all humanity.
Third, it contains inaccurate descriptions and explanations for physical phenomena.
Penultimately, we have the slight problem that there is zero evidence for even the existence of the supernatural, and every attempt to demonstrate its existence has failed.
Finally, we have the fact that religious belief is almost invariably due to the accident of birth.

So in light of all this, I suggest that to insist that the Quran is the final, perfect guide for all humanity, revealed by the one true omni-everything, infallible creator of the universe, is indeed delusional.
Reply 91
Original post by 95000
Do you believe the religion itself has contradictions? Questioning to seek knowledge is different.

"Questioning to seek knowledge" is meaningless if you simply ignore any answers that contradict your existing position.
Original post by -Quava-
Honestly, not only am I a Muslim, I'm a British teen and this is how we speak round. It's pretty common from my area to speak like this (which is predominantly white and non-Muslim :wink:)
Loool you none-Muslims on here all regurgitate the same arguments- I'm now not peaceful because I called someone a 'nonce.'
Right.... someone tell me where is the logic in that :rofl:
I'm not surprised if you're all the same person sat in a room whizzing around in different accounts furiously typing away against Muslims :rofl:

Loool and then comes all the keyboard warrior insults against Islamic figures :rofl:

Yeah sure, believe that all the criticism of Islam on this website is coming from one person. I know you can't accept that so many people can see that it is both not true and morally bankrupt.

The reason why most criticisms of Muhammad have to be anonymous is because there are far too many zealots who would murder someone for being the least bit critical.
I never disputed the number of Muslims that exist, that’s a flat out lie. My phrase “numbers aren’t an indication of truth” was clearly referring to the fact that the numbers of followers an ideology has doesn’t reflect the veracity of said ideology.
Original post by WhisperedTruth
I did eat pork at a buffet, usually eat non halal food I don’t see the problem. I have very strong beliefs on agnosticism and have referred to myself as agnostic for the past 3 years. I hate stupid Islamic beliefs being shoved down my throat, my parents disagree with what I believe in.

Even satanism is better than islam in my opinion. I never back down and usually argue with them. My voice needs to be heard.

What should I do?
I’d rather kill myself then not believing in what I wanna believe in, it’s 2017 cmon!
Let people believe in whatever they want! It isn’t hurting nobody


Given what you've said here, you aren't a muslim and you have already left Islam. So I don't understand what you are trying to achieve with this post. You've already left the religion. There's nothing you need to do.
Original post by Gold DInar
Given what you've said here, you aren't a muslim and you have already left Islam. So I don't understand what you are trying to achieve with this post. You've already left the religion. There's nothing you need to do.

I get what you mean.

Maybe OP meant that they don't want to be raised in a Muslim culture anymore, and would like their parents to stop forcing Islam on them?
Original post by -Quava-
Bruh

You (to someone else):
You haven't shown anywhere that I'm ignorant on Islamic doctrine, you're just salty and bitter that I don't like Islam, which isn't the same thing

Me:
With currently around 1.6 billion believers and being one of the most rapidly growing religions, no-one is bitter about your posts I can assure you that

Cleary got enough people that adore the religion

You:
Numbers are totally irrelevant to the argument, as they are not at all an indication of truth.

Ain't nobody lying :colonhash:
It was not clearly referring to how true the religion was as you can look at my post that you replied to where I mentioned absolutely nothing about claiming Islam was true because of the numbers.
Don't call someone a liar while lying- you are off the foolish chart completely as of today.

Exactly, you mentioned 1.6 billion Muslims and I said that they don't mean Islam is true, which is what that phrase means and I've used it before. I am not lying, it would be ridiculous to say there aren't 1.6 billion Muslims, period. I confirmed this in post 60 and my quoted post in post 61, where I'm expanding by referring to the numbers of followers in other religions, proves this. Again, you misunderstood and you're only making yourself look utterly foolish by continuing to insist that I meant something I didn't.

I have used the "no indicator of truth" phrase many times on TSR, without ever denying Islam's growth. Here are some examples:

https://www.thestudentroom.co.uk/showthread.php?t=5092382&p=75120640&page=52&highlight=numbers+aren%27t+an+indication+of+truth#post75120640

https://www.thestudentroom.co.uk/showthread.php?t=4810160&p=72668036&page=16&highlight=numbers+aren%27t+an+indication+of+truth#post72668036

https://www.thestudentroom.co.uk/showthread.php?p=71911166&highlight=numbers%20aren%27t%20an%20indication%20of%20truth

https://www.thestudentroom.co.uk/showthread.php?t=4683906&p=71207940&page=2&highlight=numbers+aren%27t+an+indication+of+truth#post71207940

https://www.thestudentroom.co.uk/showthread.php?t=5092382&p=75120640&page=52&highlight=no+indication+of+truth#post75120640

And you'll notice in that last link, in post 1027, I quoted someone saying there were 2 billion Muslims, and I not once made a comment on that figure, which I clearly would have done if I didn't believe there were over a billion Muslims, as you're falsely claiming.

Next, the very phrasing itself proves my point. If I didn't believe there were 1.6 billion Muslims I would simply have said "that number/statistic isn't true". Firstly, the fact I used "numbers" in the plural shows I was referring to people and the fact I used "indication" shows I was referring to the implication of numbers, namely, a veracity of an ideology.

All of these decidedly put your claim to bed.
(edited 4 years ago)
There's like 500 million atheists so if the whole number thing was true it would prove you wrong.
If only things were that simple, plant man
My life would be so much better
I think the point they were trying to make habibi is that 1.8 billion is a pretty big ****ing number, and it's very unlikely that that many people blindly follow the religion. If it was so easy to disprove it I don't believe so many people would still follow the religion. According to you there's a lot of evidence against Islam so wouldn't most of these people have found it out by now? There's over 4.6 billion people following Abrahamic religions, and this 'endless' amount of evidence that you have against all of it means that a lot of these people would have found it out by now. Like if you get what I mean, the numbers wouldn't be as big.

but then again, I could be wrong
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Original post by Plantagenet Crown
I never disputed the number of Muslims that exist, that’s a flat out lie. My phrase “numbers aren’t an indication of truth” was clearly referring to the fact that the numbers of followers an ideology has doesn’t reflect the veracity of said ideology.
(edited 4 years ago)
Original post by xxlaila03xx
There's like 500 million atheists so if the whole number thing was true it would prove you wrong.
If only things were that simple, plant man
My life would be so much better

But that's the point, numbers don't automatically indicate truth. The Earth would still be a sphere, even if 100% of people believed it was flat.
I edited what i said, there's more now
Original post by Plantagenet Crown
But that's the point, numbers don't automatically indicate truth. The Earth would still be a sphere, even if 100% of people believed it was flat.

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