Government to suspend Parliament
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Original post by Burton Bridge
I might not yet, fingers crossed.
I'd rather have the Tories for 5 years and keep democracy for a lifetime, then vote them out hopefully for a democratic socialist labour party. Than have a undemocratic minority/coalition labour government which will possible lose democracy for decades and removes any hope of a democratic socialist labour party full stop.
I'd rather have the Tories for 5 years and keep democracy for a lifetime, then vote them out hopefully for a democratic socialist labour party. Than have a undemocratic minority/coalition labour government which will possible lose democracy for decades and removes any hope of a democratic socialist labour party full stop.
Be careful with what you think would happen. You may vote for the Tories and have no real movement. There are Tories who are against Brexit as well.
Don't play yourself.
Original post by Wired_1800
Be careful with what you think would happen. You may vote for the Tories and have no real movement. There are Tories who are against Brexit as well.
Don't play yourself.
Don't play yourself.
You are correct but a lot of them have been booted out, but... I hear you loud and clear and I'm aware and nervous of that.
Original post by Burton Bridge
I have a feeling this is a waste if time but.
1) I didn't because you instantly dived down to a no deal brexit for an indefinite period l, which not only is not what I'm advocating, but it's also not even realistic.
2) Are you serious, so you dont realise that remaining in the customs union limits our abilty. The below is a copy paste to educate you on the CU
The EU customs union is a system under which all the Member States follow a set of common rules in exercising customs controls over goods entering the EU from the outside. The core of this system of controls is the levying of tariffs and the imposition of trade quotas under the EU’s Common Customs Tariff.
This basic explanation of the customs union explains why we cannot arrange tariff free trade without the European union's consent.
3) Of course we knew what we was voting for, I find it abhorrent and ignorant you think screaming and threatening people proves we didn't
1) I didn't because you instantly dived down to a no deal brexit for an indefinite period l, which not only is not what I'm advocating, but it's also not even realistic.
2) Are you serious, so you dont realise that remaining in the customs union limits our abilty. The below is a copy paste to educate you on the CU
The EU customs union is a system under which all the Member States follow a set of common rules in exercising customs controls over goods entering the EU from the outside. The core of this system of controls is the levying of tariffs and the imposition of trade quotas under the EU’s Common Customs Tariff.
This basic explanation of the customs union explains why we cannot arrange tariff free trade without the European union's consent.
3) Of course we knew what we was voting for, I find it abhorrent and ignorant you think screaming and threatening people proves we didn't
1) So you are still to answer the question. Will we be economically better off without the EU, or will we be just as economically sound without the EU? There is a difference.
2) If we leave without access to the single market that is 32 countries whom we will then need to trade on WTO terms. 32 fairly economically developed countries. I couldn't give a **** if we can't make tariff free trade without the EU's consent, we lose those 32 countries then no single country will make up for that. Or is this where you say America will come and charge in and save the day, despite there being no inkling that we are top of Trumps plans?
3) "Of course we knew what we was voting for..." I now have my answer as to why you voted to leave....
Original post by Burton Bridge
It's becoming clear you dont understand what you are judging brexiters on.
The government cannot current do anything because remainer parliamentarians are holding a zombie government in power against its will and blocking democracy at the same time!
The idea these remain parliamentarians (and hard core remainers like you) were/are worried about democracy is a fallacious argument completely. All of them shouting and balling about Parliamentarians being shut down of the scrutinise the government, and the closing of democracy is nonsense. Dont believe me or disagree with me? Ok answer me this;
Why was there so many empty seats when borris gave his brexit speech in the commons last week, if scrutinisation of the Brexit plans is so important to them, they would fight in the commons and stay after its closed till the early hours?
The government cannot current do anything because remainer parliamentarians are holding a zombie government in power against its will and blocking democracy at the same time!
The idea these remain parliamentarians (and hard core remainers like you) were/are worried about democracy is a fallacious argument completely. All of them shouting and balling about Parliamentarians being shut down of the scrutinise the government, and the closing of democracy is nonsense. Dont believe me or disagree with me? Ok answer me this;
Why was there so many empty seats when borris gave his brexit speech in the commons last week, if scrutinisation of the Brexit plans is so important to them, they would fight in the commons and stay after its closed till the early hours?
When Brexit can be delivered in the way that was promised by the leave campaign then I would think no doubt it would fly through parliament. The issue is, it cannot be delivered like was promised, by anybody. Lies were told which will never come to fruition, therefore the vote in itself is null and void because it was based on a set of lies. Everything that was promised is complete utopian, by a campaign led by public school boys who will no doubt be no worse off despite an inevitable economic collapse once we leave. The number one thing which makes me so annoyed by this who palaver is the people that mostly voted for this, the working classes, who were led by the elite, will be much worse off as a result. Like Sunderland, turkeys voting for Christmas springs to mind.
Original post by Burton Bridge
You are correct but a lot of them have been booted out, but... I hear you loud and clear and I'm aware and nervous of that.
That is fair
Original post by paul514
The people are the group who voted
So you think that the opinion of 17 million people represents "the will" of 33 million people, 16 million of whom specifically said they didn't agree with the 17 million?
You'll have to explain how you work that one out.
Original post by QE2
So you think that the opinion of 17 million people represents "the will" of 33 million people, 16 million of whom specifically said they didn't agree with the 17 million?
You'll have to explain how you work that one out.
You'll have to explain how you work that one out.
Sure.
We decide what is the will of a group by getting a majority answer.
Original post by imlikeahermit
Again, sad that all you've got to hang onto is the democracy argument. Also nice to see the 17.4 million *beats chest* making a return.
When the UK government can deliver what was promised as part of leaving the EU, then we can chat. When there is actually some measurable benefit of leaving the EU, then we can chat. Alas, that day will never come.
When the UK government can deliver what was promised as part of leaving the EU, then we can chat. When there is actually some measurable benefit of leaving the EU, then we can chat. Alas, that day will never come.
Oh yea it’s really sad that people want to enact what they bothered voting for 😂
Original post by paul514
Oh yea it’s really sad that people want to enact what they bothered voting for 😂
In which they were lied to. Why did you vote to leave, if you did...?
Original post by imlikeahermit
In which they were lied to. Why did you vote to leave, if you did...?
Most people would say immigration as people think we would get less immigrants if we left the EU.
(edited 4 years ago)
Original post by imlikeahermit
In which they were lied to. Why did you vote to leave, if you did...?
Both sides bent the truth and lied which is what happens every time we vote
Original post by paul514
Sure.
We decide what is the will of a group by getting a majority answer.
We decide what is the will of a group by getting a majority answer.
No, that was a "result", not "the will of the people", because "the people" are more than 17 million. If Leave really was "the will of the people", why are so many of "the people" obviously against it. Constantly repeating "the will of the people" is merely a transparent attempt by Leavers to legitimise a not redundant minority position.
You wouldn't call this Tory government "the government of the people", would you?
Original post by QE2
No, that was a "result", not "the will of the people", because "the people" are more than 17 million. If Leave really was "the will of the people", why are so many of "the people" obviously against it. Constantly repeating "the will of the people" is merely a transparent attempt by Leavers to legitimise a not redundant minority position.
You wouldn't call this Tory government "the government of the people", would you?
You wouldn't call this Tory government "the government of the people", would you?
No because they aren’t a majority government 😂
At what number does it become the will of the people? 33.5 million exactly?
Original post by paul514
No because they aren’t a majority government 😂
They were when they were elected. Therefore they must remain so, by your logic. Can't change democracy.
At what number does it become the will of the people? 33.5 million exactly?
"The will of the people" is a meaningless term, as there will always be some of "the people" who disagree. It should not be used to describe any sort of majority.
It is no coincidence that it is often used by dictators and demagogues to justify harsh or divisive policies. It is designed to imply that if you oppose it, you are somehow against "the people", which is synonymous with "the nation". If you oppose "the will of the people", you are an "enemy of the people". A traitor. And we know where that kind of rhetoric leads.
Original post by QE2
"The will of the people" is a meaningless term, as there will always be some of "the people" who disagree. It should not be used to describe any sort of majority.
It is no coincidence that it is often used by dictators and demagogues to justify harsh or divisive policies. It is designed to imply that if you oppose it, you are somehow against "the people", which is synonymous with "the nation". If you oppose "the will of the people", you are an "enemy of the people". A traitor. And we know where that kind of rhetoric leads.
It is no coincidence that it is often used by dictators and demagogues to justify harsh or divisive policies. It is designed to imply that if you oppose it, you are somehow against "the people", which is synonymous with "the nation". If you oppose "the will of the people", you are an "enemy of the people". A traitor. And we know where that kind of rhetoric leads.
MP’s are directly elected a government is formed by those MP’s as they themselves will never tire of saying.
The majority view of the public in a democratic vote is not a meaningless term.
If it were meaningless then democracy would be meaningless hence why all previous elections and referendums have been enacted. Such as the welsh referendum when there wasn’t even 1% in it from a tiny electorate.
So Parliament is now prorogued again and in the last couple of weeks they have shown that their big hooha was simply to play politics and waste a lot of taxpayer money. They said that Boris shouldn't have prorogued because it was so vital they do Brexit stuff however in the time since the Supreme Court ruling they have done a grand total of jack **** other than a load of posturing they were doing while prorogued anyway.
Original post by Jammy Duel
So Parliament is now prorogued again and in the last couple of weeks they have shown that their big hooha was simply to play politics and waste a lot of taxpayer money. They said that Boris shouldn't have prorogued because it was so vital they do Brexit stuff however in the time since the Supreme Court ruling they have done a grand total of jack **** other than a load of posturing they were doing while prorogued anyway.
Completely correct it barely made the news all day except as a sort of add on to people going on about responses from Ireland and Germany about talks.
Such a matter of importance when they just argued for the couple of days of the week the cane back then next week it was Tory conference and sod all happened, when they came back it was all quiet in there then there was today and Monday when also nothing happened.
Such profound constitutional changes made by judges for sod all reason.
Thank god we will have a conservative majority at some point in the next few months to get rid of their ruling via a vote in the house and we can finish all this withdrawal nonsense.
the EU's rejection of Boris' plan couldn't be less surprising for anyone with an ounce of sense...
Why would the EU ever accept a deal that isn't perfect (and the plan definitely has problems) when they are potentially one election away from the best possible result for them? All they need is boris to loose an election, and they get to see the UK come crawling back to the EU via the libs/labour, and in turn send a huge message to all other euroskeptic nations, that "look if the UK can't manage this, one of the richest and most powerful nations in the EU.. how the hell can you?".
What possible motivation does the EU have at all for accepting any form of compromise right now?
Honest remainers know this, and admit when they say 'take no deal off the table' they really mean 'remain', because their is no leaving unless no deal is at least a possibility. But there are far far to many remainers, especially politicians who are not being honest, and continuing to push the absolute lie that its possible to negotiate a compromise with another entity who has every reason to refuse.
Its a deluded position that Labour are holding. It won't hold up in an election. Leave voters can see right through it, and remain voters will just see it as easier to vote for the Lib dems.. how can you think this is logical:
Labour want: To negotiate a compromise with the EU
EU want: Us to remain
Labours pitch: Lets negotiate for 6 months, and then we will hold a referendum of the deal you give us vs remain, where our own party is free to campaign for remain
The EU: Ok, well why would we give you a good deal? We want you to remain.. if we give you a bad deal, most of your own MPs will campaign against it, no one will vote for it, and you will end up staying in?
Its remain in all but name.
They would be better being honest about it like the lib dems.
Why would the EU ever accept a deal that isn't perfect (and the plan definitely has problems) when they are potentially one election away from the best possible result for them? All they need is boris to loose an election, and they get to see the UK come crawling back to the EU via the libs/labour, and in turn send a huge message to all other euroskeptic nations, that "look if the UK can't manage this, one of the richest and most powerful nations in the EU.. how the hell can you?".
What possible motivation does the EU have at all for accepting any form of compromise right now?
Honest remainers know this, and admit when they say 'take no deal off the table' they really mean 'remain', because their is no leaving unless no deal is at least a possibility. But there are far far to many remainers, especially politicians who are not being honest, and continuing to push the absolute lie that its possible to negotiate a compromise with another entity who has every reason to refuse.
Its a deluded position that Labour are holding. It won't hold up in an election. Leave voters can see right through it, and remain voters will just see it as easier to vote for the Lib dems.. how can you think this is logical:
Labour want: To negotiate a compromise with the EU
EU want: Us to remain
Labours pitch: Lets negotiate for 6 months, and then we will hold a referendum of the deal you give us vs remain, where our own party is free to campaign for remain
The EU: Ok, well why would we give you a good deal? We want you to remain.. if we give you a bad deal, most of your own MPs will campaign against it, no one will vote for it, and you will end up staying in?
Its remain in all but name.
They would be better being honest about it like the lib dems.
Original post by QE2
They were when they were elected. Therefore they must remain so, by your logic. Can't change democracy.
They was never a majority government in this parliament, they are a minority government with a confidence and supply agreement with the DUP.
Original post by paul514
We decide what is the will of a group by getting a majority answer.
So if there are four choices where A gets 28% and B, C and D get 24% each, A is "the will of the people", despite three quarters of "the people" voting against it?
How does that work?
You are still confusing "majority vote" with "will of the people". They are not the same thing. Just repeating "yes they are" is not an argument.
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