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Original post by stjohnpeters
Anyone got any ideas what Cardiff will be charging?
Probably 9000 if you're ingurlish. Russel group and all that
Any half decent Uni will be charging the maximum or very close to it.
The government hasn't introduced any new powers to stop them charging up to the maximum. They have to meet certain fair acces criteria but in all honesty that is a bit of a joke and the Office For Fair Access is pretty much powerless anyway.
The really sad thing is that because of the government cuts in the teaching grants given to universities, the standard of teaching or the overall student experience is unlikely to improve. This rise in fees simply covers the loss of the grant.
It could be argued that the humanities/arts students are getting shafted the most. 9k a year for 8 to 10hrs contact time and a degree which doesn't necessarily lead to any kind of increased job prospects or earning power. Science/Engineering and vocational courses are going to look a lot more appealing from next year.
Of course all the politicians putting through these changes benefited from free university education, with generous living grants too! Furthermore, most of them had private schooling or were given a leg up by the grammar school system. Talk about pulling the ladder up behind you!
The government hasn't introduced any new powers to stop them charging up to the maximum. They have to meet certain fair acces criteria but in all honesty that is a bit of a joke and the Office For Fair Access is pretty much powerless anyway.
The really sad thing is that because of the government cuts in the teaching grants given to universities, the standard of teaching or the overall student experience is unlikely to improve. This rise in fees simply covers the loss of the grant.
It could be argued that the humanities/arts students are getting shafted the most. 9k a year for 8 to 10hrs contact time and a degree which doesn't necessarily lead to any kind of increased job prospects or earning power. Science/Engineering and vocational courses are going to look a lot more appealing from next year.
Of course all the politicians putting through these changes benefited from free university education, with generous living grants too! Furthermore, most of them had private schooling or were given a leg up by the grammar school system. Talk about pulling the ladder up behind you!
Original post by arabcnesbit
Considering that GP's and consultants will be approaching £250,000 a year in salary I don't see why they couldn't pay it off. Doctors are just a cog in a machine like the rest of us, I really don't see why you think they deserve special treatment?
GP's and consultants acutally tend to hover around the 80/90000 mark, some make it to more than 100000 yes I admit, but not most and definately not all. And out of their salary they also pay 40% tax, so lets say 100000 just for simlicity, they are automatically down to 60000 after tax. Theres no way they can pay off 250000 of debt and keep enough money to pay mortgages have kids and generally live. Doctors, contrary to popular belief are not excessively paid. And I was using medical degrees as an example, hence why I wrote, FOR EXAMPLE. Seriously though, if you were choosing a uni course and one was going to cost you £9000 a year, and another was going to cost you £50000, which one are you likely to choose, the difference in cost is not made up by the difference in salarys after degree. It simply wouldn't be worth it. I'm not saying they deserve special treatment at all, thats silly, I'm saying that if you made medical students pay £50000 a year for their degree then you're not going to have enough doctors to have a functioning health care system. Therefore everyones screwed coz we don't have enough access to health care because there aren't enough doctors. Think about it logically.
Original post by GodspeedGehenna
I love how this system was supposed to encourage competition. Ha.
It would have done if there were more places than applicants. Unfortunately there are far more applicants than places. Surely someone in the Government would have realised that this would not result in competition, but instead cause Universities to charge as much as they wanted; particularly when they are still trying to increase the number of people in university! Why!
Original post by BigV
Any half decent Uni will be charging the maximum or very close to it.
The government hasn't introduced any new powers to stop them charging up to the maximum. They have to meet certain fair acces criteria but in all honesty that is a bit of a joke and the Office For Fair Access is pretty much powerless anyway.
The government hasn't introduced any new powers to stop them charging up to the maximum. They have to meet certain fair acces criteria but in all honesty that is a bit of a joke and the Office For Fair Access is pretty much powerless anyway.
Yeah weird how they were talking about 9,000 being the exception as if they would be going round on a case by case basis capping the fees, then not creating the powers to allow them to do what they implied they would be doing.
it's almost like you can't believe a single thing coming out of a politicians mouth these days
Original post by arabcnesbit
Considering that GP's and consultants will be approaching £250,000 a year in salary
Might want to lay off the Daily Mail, there.
Original post by mangoh
-rep it clearly does?
This is how: high quality teachers due to tuition fees (surely???). Many universities can now compete on a level and say we all have *high quality* teachers, come here? Another university could say *no, we have high teachers, come here* etc... So hopefully you understand it encourages competition
On topic: Thanks for posting this, I'm glad most universities are charging £9,000 as it has to be said *again, my opinion* but often the working class distrupt lessons and ruin it for others. *from my experiences*
This is how: high quality teachers due to tuition fees (surely???). Many universities can now compete on a level and say we all have *high quality* teachers, come here? Another university could say *no, we have high teachers, come here* etc... So hopefully you understand it encourages competition
On topic: Thanks for posting this, I'm glad most universities are charging £9,000 as it has to be said *again, my opinion* but often the working class distrupt lessons and ruin it for others. *from my experiences*
Wow... You can tell working class people by looking at them?
What is stopping the working class people from getting the loans to cover it?
It seems odd that people are saying that now they cant afford uni... You can, just get the loan.
Original post by jendra9311
7
You can add Leicester to the list of Unis charging 9k now.
http://www2.le.ac.uk/offices/press/press-releases/2011/april/scholarship-programme-tuition-fees
Original post by arabcnesbit
Considering that GP's and consultants will be approaching £250,000 a year in salary I don't see why they couldn't pay it off. Doctors are just a cog in a machine like the rest of us, I really don't see why you think they deserve special treatment?
a) that kind of wage is not true (as people have said)
b) medicine is a bit of a special case as the vast majority (>99%) of graduates will go into a vital government-paid job straight out of uni. Increasing fees so much will only serve to put people off studying medicine and reduce the quality of doctors. The alternative would be to greatly increase doctor's pay to keep people applying for medicine (as with the US), which would be greatly more expensive.
The same applies to all other science degrees though. Less people will study them if they cost more, which is not what the government wants. It is in the country's interest to subsidize them (as the government does, providing unis with no funding for humanities degrees).
(edited 13 years ago)
Original post by anonymous 428
lol cuz i dont live in the UK
But you are posting on a UK forum.
No problems with you posting and wanting the info but why not setup a separate thread rather than demand for the info to be here, its not relevant as they won't be tripling.
Original post by Quady
But you are posting on a UK forum.
No problems with you posting and wanting the info but why not setup a separate thread rather than demand for the info to be here, its not relevant as they won't be tripling.
No problems with you posting and wanting the info but why not setup a separate thread rather than demand for the info to be here, its not relevant as they won't be tripling.
lol its ok chill uk is very expensive for intl student anyways.. i wasn't gonna apply :P
Original post by emilymay
GP's and consultants acutally tend to hover around the 80/90000 mark, some make it to more than 100000 yes I admit, but not most and definately not all. And out of their salary they also pay 40% tax, so lets say 100000 just for simlicity, they are automatically down to 60000 after tax. Theres no way they can pay off 250000 of debt and keep enough money to pay mortgages have kids and generally live. Doctors, contrary to popular belief are not excessively paid. And I was using medical degrees as an example, hence why I wrote, FOR EXAMPLE. Seriously though, if you were choosing a uni course and one was going to cost you £9000 a year, and another was going to cost you £50000, which one are you likely to choose, the difference in cost is not made up by the difference in salarys after degree. It simply wouldn't be worth it. I'm not saying they deserve special treatment at all, thats silly, I'm saying that if you made medical students pay £50000 a year for their degree then you're not going to have enough doctors to have a functioning health care system. Therefore everyones screwed coz we don't have enough access to health care because there aren't enough doctors. Think about it logically.
Consultants earn a Basic salary of £75-100K, once you figure in overtime and any private work they may have done they will be on a hell of a lot more. The international fees for most UK medicine programmes seem to be around £20-25K a year, so let's take the higher end of that and say for a medicine degree it costs £125,000, only half what you said it was but never mind.
If you earn £100k per year, currently you will be paying £7,650 per year in student loan repayments. Considering that before you become a GP/consultant you will still be making loan repayments from a good salary I think it will take about 20 years to pay it off in total, worse case scenario. Considering that you will have a career for 40+ years I don't see why this is a problem?
If you think this would put people off medicine you are deluded.
Original post by GodspeedGehenna
Might want to lay off the Daily Mail, there.
I was guilty of exaggerating that point. My apologies.
Original post by nexttime
a) that kind of wage is not true (as people have said)
b) medicine is a bit of a special case as the vast majority (>99%) of graduates will go into a vital government-paid job straight out of uni. Increasing fees so much will only serve to put people off studying medicine and reduce the quality of doctors. The alternative would be to greatly increase doctor's pay to keep people applying for medicine (as with the US), which would be greatly more expensive.
The same applies to all other science degrees though. Less people will study them if they cost more, which is not what the government wants. It is in the country's interest to subsidize them (as the government does, providing unis with no funding for humanities degrees).
b) medicine is a bit of a special case as the vast majority (>99%) of graduates will go into a vital government-paid job straight out of uni. Increasing fees so much will only serve to put people off studying medicine and reduce the quality of doctors. The alternative would be to greatly increase doctor's pay to keep people applying for medicine (as with the US), which would be greatly more expensive.
The same applies to all other science degrees though. Less people will study them if they cost more, which is not what the government wants. It is in the country's interest to subsidize them (as the government does, providing unis with no funding for humanities degrees).
Degrees that have greater earning power will have higher fees. Medicine is not a special case. There will be plenty of people applying for medicine. Do you know what the number one degree choice for medicine rejects is?
Spoiler
Original post by arabcnesbit
Degrees that have greater earning power will have higher fees. Medicine is not a special case. There will be plenty of people applying for medicine. Do you know what the number one degree choice for medicine rejects is? Shows the real motivation for most of our wannabe doctors.
Spoiler
I thought you wanted to link fees to cost of degree, not earning power?
There may still be plenty of people applying for medicine, but the average calibre of those that get in will be worse than current. Subsidising fees is a great way of attracting people to medicine cheaply, something that the government feels is in the country's best interests. The same applies to science degrees.
I don't see how criticizing the second choice of medical applicants shows anything.
University of Nottingham: £9000
University of Leicester: £9000
University of Loughborough: £9000
The University of Derby says it wants to change on a sliding sclae between £7000 - £8000
University of Leicester: £9000
University of Loughborough: £9000
The University of Derby says it wants to change on a sliding sclae between £7000 - £8000
Original post by nexttime
I thought you wanted to link fees to cost of degree, not earning power?
There may still be plenty of people applying for medicine, but the average calibre of those that get in will be worse than current. Subsidising fees is a great way of attracting people to medicine cheaply, something that the government feels is in the country's best interests. The same applies to science degrees.
I don't see how criticizing the second choice of medical applicants shows anything.
There may still be plenty of people applying for medicine, but the average calibre of those that get in will be worse than current. Subsidising fees is a great way of attracting people to medicine cheaply, something that the government feels is in the country's best interests. The same applies to science degrees.
I don't see how criticizing the second choice of medical applicants shows anything.
See my previous post for the cost breakdown of a medicine degree and how a student would pay it back. With the dumbing down of A levels I don't think the calibre of doctors can get much lower. I don't want fees to be linked to earning power, it's the universities that do this. For instance subjects like MBA's are cheap to run but cost a fortune because the universities know their students will earn high salaries due to the qualification so the price of the fees is extortionate. Why should arts/humanities students have to pay more in order for medicine and science students to pay less?
The medicine reject example was included to show the main motivation for medicine applicants is money and employment prospects. The constant holier than thou attitude of some student doctors, that they're some how doing the world a favour, starts to grate after a while.
Original post by arabcnesbit
See my previous post for the cost breakdown of a medicine degree and how a student would pay it back. With the dumbing down of A levels I don't think the calibre of doctors can get much lower.
lol - it can always get lower!
Original post by arabcnesbit
Why should arts/humanities students have to pay more in order for medicine and science students to pay less?
Because its beneficial for the economy i.e. the same reason that the government funds universities at all.
(edited 13 years ago)
Original post by nexttime
lol - it can always get lower!
Sadly, you may be right.
Because its beneficial for the economy i.e. the same reason that the government funds universities at all.
That may be an argument if the government were still heavily subsidising the fees, but they aren't any more so these subsidies are coming directly from some students to others by the way of blanket fees, which I still contest is unfair.
I don't study arts or humanities btw, so don't have some chip on my shoulder on this matter.
Also, how does subsidising courses whose graduates are heavily recruited by the public sector help the economy?
Original post by arabcnesbit
That may be an argument if the government were still heavily subsidising the fees, but they aren't any more so these subsidies are coming directly from some students to others by the way of blanket fees, which I still contest is unfair.
They do still subsidize fees - really quite heavily for medicine, a bit for sciences and not at all for humanities.
With regards to whether humanities students are actually paying for the science students directly... this may be true to an extent. The main reason for that is simply because they can - it does not deter people from applying as much as, say, 25K fees would for medicine.
Original post by arabcnesbit
Also, how does subsidising courses whose graduates are heavily recruited by the public sector help the economy?
Well it saves the government money. As i say, to get the same quality applicants in the context of huge fees would require a much greater increase in the wage of doctors. Paying for med students fees is a highly efficient way to recruit better doctors.
The army does the same thing, and private businesses do as well - they will pay for their employees training in the knowledge that providing this will improve the quality of staff at a cheaper cost than increasing salaries.
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