The Marriage (Same-sex Couples) Act

One group of people's progress is another groups oppression

Reply 51

Original post by sophia_

One group of people's progress is another groups oppression

what group does this bill oppress?

It forces nothing upon anyone,
It gives religions more freedom to decide who they marry,
It fully protects those religions who dont want to marry same-sex couples,
etc..

this bill really does not opress anyone..

- unless you are claiming that it opressess people who disagree with it? - but thats hardly opression, having to live with other people doing things you disagree with is part of everday life..

People may disagree with organised religion,
or certian degrees
or certian political parties,
or certian newspapers..

But that doesnt mean that they are opressed, just because something exists that they personally dont agree with..

To suggest so, is quite a misunderstanding of what real opression is..

Reply 52

Original post by fallen_acorns

.....

According to a public survey of the UK, 56% say Britain is Christian, & 61% agree it should be Christian. The Queen is the head of state, the Queen is a Christian. So, as also stated by the Prime Minister, England is a Christian country.

Based on that, marriage in England has always, until now, been held in what the Guardian has described today as the 'natural' and 'Biblical' meaning. The meaning taken from Christianity. To change the definition is to suggest that the Biblical meaning is wrong, God is wrong, everybody who believes in the Bible (needless to say Christians) have it wrong. Today it has been more or less put in to legal standing that those mentioned are wrong.

I believe this is a form of oppression toward the Christians residing in the UK, also elsewhere.

I am not saying that I am against 'gay marriage', but I can hold the opinion above and support gay rights at the same time.

Edit: To not be able to think and express your religion freely in a country which is said to be of a certain religious nature, for fear of prosecution (offences related to homophobia), is also a part of the oppression, for all of this not to be true it would have to be clearly declared by the Queen and government that England is NOT a Christian country

(edited 10 years ago)

Reply 53

Original post by sophia_

According to a public survey of the UK, 56% say Britain is Christian, & 61% agree it should be Christian. The Queen is the head of state, the Queen is a Christian. So, as also stated by the Prime Minister, England is a Christian country.

Based on that, marriage in England has always, until now, been held in what the Guardian has described today as the 'natural' and 'Biblical' meaning. The meaning taken from Christianity. To change the definition is to suggest that the Biblical meaning is wrong, God is wrong, everybody who believes in the Bible (needless to say Christians) have it wrong. Today it has been more or less put in to legal standing that those mentioned are wrong.

I believe this is a form of oppression toward the Christians residing in the UK, also elsewhere.

I am not saying that I am against 'gay marriage', but I can hold the opinion above and support gay rights at the same time.

are you aware that up untill the mid 1100's christianity in the UK allowed gay people to get married? (pretty well documented if you fancy looking it up)

Not that this has anything to do with it...

Christains also should disagree with sex before marriage.. its very strongly upposed in the bible, both in the new and old testimonts..

yet is legal...

Is that also oppressing Christians?

Is any deviation in law from the bible, oppressing Christians?

No. to suggest so would be silly..

yet your argument could be re-worded to prefection to suggest that it is...

-- though this is still all meaningles.. as same-sex marriages are civil marriages, not religious ones.. - there is a very distinct difference between the two :smile:

religion does not own marriage, and only should be able to govern what its followers consider marriage, not members of other religions. - this act does not define what 'cristian marriage' is, it meerly updates the definiton of civil marriages, to futher equality..

To suggest that they are being oppressed, when they are not being forced to:

Agree with anything,
Do anything,
Have anything done to them,
change their views,
Accept others views,
etc.

is just silly, and does not hold up under any scruitiny..

----

Samesex marriages are civil marriages, not religious ones - and do not affect any church's view on what is a marriage.. only the states,

No memeber of a religion is being forced into anything, and there is no opression, they can continue to opose gay marriage, and believe what ever they want :smile:

- they even have legal protection to now refuse gay people to marry in their church...

so moving on, answer me this:

What about the parts of christianity which want gay marriage? - I am a member of a church which supports this bill.. and I personally know gay vicars, religios leaders, etc, and christian churches which would love to give out gay marriages..

currently, under law they are forbidden from conducting marriages as they wish.. they are forced to not do this, and as such are opressed..

Under the new bill though they are free to conduct any marriage which they see choose to!

AND

those churches who disagree with it, are free to not conduct those, and to still hold their beliefs, and act acordingly...

So if anything this bill reducing religious persecution by providng more freedom for religious organisations to act acording to their beliefs :smile:

......

(edited 10 years ago)

Reply 54

Original post by sophia_

Edit: To not be able to think and express your religion freely in a country which is said to be of a certain religious nature, for fear of prosecution (offences related to homophobia), is also a part of the oppression, for all of this not to be true it would have to be clearly declared by the Queen and government that England is NOT a Christian country

to reply to the edit:

under the new bill religious institutions are still able to:

Express their views against equal marriage
Think thier views against equal marriage,
Refuse to have any part of equal marriage,
Not take part in an equal marriage.

They are also legally protected from facing any persecution, and this has encluded to an amendment to the equaly act 2010...

So where is the problem?

All of the things you listed.. they can still do?

Reply 55

Original post by fallen_acorns

....

The fact that you say some parts of Christianity encourage gay marriage is an entirely new thread.

You can't say that gay marriages are civil and not religious when the definition of marriage stems from religion.

You're moving on to several other issues.

My main point is that England should not be referred to as a Christian country when it does not uphold Christian teachings, the simplest of which being that marriage is a relationship formed between man and woman.

You suggested that for oppression to exist, people may be forced to accept other views or forced to change theirs. They are being forced in to it, out of fear that if they do not they will be branded as a homophobe or as somebody who is living in the dark ages, as somebody who has not made way in to the 21st Century. The changing of their views or accepting of others is therefore heavily implicated with social and political pressures, not their own personal mental processes. That is oppression. It is not enforced oppression, people can easily move to a place where there is no such fear imposed. It still exists none the less.

Edit: In reply to your reply to my edit- Above still applies

(edited 10 years ago)

Reply 56

Joeman560

10

Original post by mmmpie

It is legal, although the first same-sex marriages won't actually happen until next year.

You tell us. You're the one concerned about getting an Incest Bill into parliament. What's your timetable?

ASAP why can't I marry my sister? or brother now that gay "marriage" has been passed.

Also, why are the main advocates of gay marriage not even gay? Why don't the gays care?

(edited 10 years ago)

Reply 57

Original post by sophia_

The fact that you say some parts of Christianity encourage gay marriage is an entirely new thread.

You can't say that gay marriages are civil and not religious when the definition of marriage stems from religion.

You're moving on to several other issues.

My main point is that England should not be referred to as a Christian country when it does not uphold Christian teachings, the simplest of which being that marriage is a relationship formed between man and woman.

You suggested that for oppression to exist, people may be forced to accept other views or forced to change theirs. They are being forced in to it, out of fear that if they do not they will be branded as a homophobe or as somebody who is living in the dark ages, as somebody who has not made way in to the 21st Century. The changing of their views or accepting of others is therefore heavily implicated with social and political pressures, not their own personal mental processes. That is oppression. It is not enforced oppression, people can easily move to a place where there is no such fear imposed. It still exists none the less.

Edit: In reply to your reply to my edit- Above still applies

"My main point is that England should not be referred to as a Christian country when it does not uphold Christian teachings, the simplest of which being that marriage is a relationship formed between man and woman."

so it needs to uphold all of christianities teachings? or just the ones you pick and choose? - as there a whole bunch that dont fit in with our modern society.. that we kindly ignore.. (such as sex before marriage; rape being grounds for marriage; etc.)

as for 'marriage is a relationship formed between a man and a women' being the simplest of their teachings... im pretty sure that my fellow christian friends would disagree.. and instead supplant that living a moral life, and treating others as you wish to be treated, being kind to your fellow man etc.. were the simplest and core of their messages.. :wink:

- as for your last paragraph.. none of what you suggest is technically 'force' - just having people disagree with, and critisise your opinions.. is not the same as 'forcing you' not to have those..

None of what you are listing would count as opression.. - infact one of my heavily religious collegues discribed it well saying:

"They're mistaking oppression for not being allowed to oppress people. They've suddenly lost a privilege they shouldn't have had"

- christians have lived for the last melenium opressing the LGBT community, and FORCING them not to be allowed to legally marry... - that is opression, true opression..

Under the new bill, christians will loose this right to FORCE others to live by their personal beliefs. - instead they will have to live in a society with people who do things they dont agree with...

But that is not opression.

- Living with people who do things you dont like, is not opression
- Living with people who disagree with your opinion, is not opression.
- Being given full legal protection, (as they will have) is not opression.
- Having to live in a society with a law that you dont like, is not opression.
- Being critisised for your opinion, is not opression.

- Forcing other people to do things, or banning them from doing something, by your personal religious beliefs - which they do not hold... IS opression.

but this is not whats happening here.. no christian is being forced to do anything - they are meerly loosing their ability to force others..

(edited 10 years ago)

Reply 58

Original post by Joeman560

Also, why are the main advocates of gay marriage not even gay? Why don't the gays care?

what are you talking about?

the bulk of the campaigners for equal marriage are members of the LGBT community..

how do I know this? - because im one of them! and have worked with, and met many others..

-- and yes gay people do care.. hence why currently at each stage of the bill passing, there have been huge celebrations within the community...

Reply 59