What is this forum's obsession with confidence?

Every forum has a dedicated cadre of members who think confidence is the solution to all problems. I get it.

However this forum seems to take it to the next level.

I mean if you fail a test at uni you're told to study harder.

If you want to run 3km within a certain time limit you're told to train more, or better.

If you want to learn how to play the piano you're told to practice.

You're not told to be more confident! And if you are it's simply to provide a harmonious psychological state that doesn't interfere with your performance. Confidence is not supposed to be the mainstay of your strategy in life.

Yet if someone here states that they can't get a relationship because they think they're ugly (presumably we should believe them given they're in the best position to make such assessments), well these people are told not to make themselves more physically attractive but to work on their confidence.

Just recently a poster was told NOT to form a relationship because his confidence was not high enough and that he should wait until he was more confident.

What?

Can someone here explain the importance of confidence to me, I mean maybe I've missed something?

Confidence automatically adjusts to its appropriate level (baring rare situations such as depression or mental illness). It doesn't need to be artificially inflated. If you're successful in whatever endeavour you're undertaking, EG dancing or football, then you'll be really confident when you do those things in the future. If you're not good at those things then you wont be confident. The confidence itself however plays little role in your performance. A confident person who tries dancing but is hopeless at dancing is still going to be hopeless at dancing.

Now of course you can extrapolate this same logic to dating and relationships. Telling someone who is physically unattractive and who gets rejected before they can try and make personality driven connections with people they're interested in is asinine advice and probably more counter productive than helpful.

I think the problem is people see others who are successful in dating and who are confident and assume that the reason that person is successful is because they're confident, when it was the success that caused the confidence. A chicken or the egg scenario.

If you want to improve your dating life then work on your looks, your wealth or your education or social status (or just your looks if you're a woman :smile:

). The confidence will come later.

Reply 1

Dr Pesto

19

Confidence itself is an attractive quality, probably more attractive to many people than things like wealth and how educated you are. Think about it, who's going to look hotter: a person who stammers, struggles to make eye contact and who never speaks up for fear of tripping over their words and being laughed at, or someone who looks you in the eye, makes interesting conversation and who isn't afraid of social interaction?

Reply 2

Mike9910

OP

3

Original post by Dr Pesto

Think about it, who's going to look hotter: a person who stammers, struggles to make eye contact and who never speaks up for fear of tripping over their words and being laughed at, or someone who looks you in the eye, makes interesting conversation and who isn't afraid of social interaction?

I think it would depend on who the comparison is being made between.

For sure, in a vacuum the more confident person would be more attractive.

However say we took male model Nick Bateman (https://instagram.com/nick__bateman/) and made him a stammering mess, than took an average guy and made him confident, well I would say Nick Bateman would still win a popularity contest.

Not to mention that confidence is just a mindset based on previous experiences, so in this example once Nick bateman has been given positive feedback from the world he will become (MUCH) more confident. And quickly.

The average looking man would receive worse feedback from the world. Say for example he approached lots of beautiful women and was rejected every time, which is a likely outcome. As time goes on he would get less and less confident. Which goes back to what I said about confidence being automatically modulated. You don't need to think about it. You don't need to try and build confidence. You should try and build things that make success, success is the generator of confidence. Not the other way around.

Confidence doesn't take long to build or destroy, that is another argument against its valuableness.

(edited 9 years ago)

Reply 3

Mike9910

OP

3

Original post by pvcnt

Personally i think too much confidence is one of world's biggest problems. We need less of it not more.

I think the confidence obsession has gone too far too.

Confidence should be connected to competence. If you're not good at something you should not be confident you'll be able to perform at the something in the future. You should work on finding ways to actually improve your performance, not on finding ways to THINK you might perform better. This applies to dating as well.

if you're average then a moderate level of confidence is apt. You don't need and shouldn't have a massive level of confidence. You're average after all and by definition you don't have anything going for you that many others don't have.

You can be the most confident man in the world with the best personalty but unless you have traits that are considered attractive you will not be getting many if any dates. I know people like this is real life: gorgeous on the inside but completely oblivious to how dating works. It's not fair that looks and money, social status etc. play so much of a role in dating but that's how it is, there's no point denying reality just because we don't like it.

(edited 9 years ago)

Reply 4

DanB1991

17

In terms of socialisation confidence generally makes people more receptive of you.... unless they're extreme introverted and socially inept.

Reply 5

Mike9910

OP

3

Original post by DanB1991

In terms of socialisation confidence generally makes people more receptive of you.... unless they're extreme introverted and socially inept.

I would say that's is debatable and we could see a gender dichotomy here.

EG

There are studies that show women attract more men if they look happy, coy and receptive, confidence was either a negative or neutral factor.Which makes sense if you think about it from a man's perspective. A man is looking for signs that is chances of rejection are low, a confident women is arguably going to increase his risks of rejection. Confidence is also an expression of dominance and a woman being confident may lower a man's own confidence and ability to woo a woman.

I've seen allot of female social groups that are very hierarchical and a newcomer expressing lots of confidence is going to cause friction.

I can think of many other social scenarios when confidence would be more of a hindrance than help. It would depend on the social group you're interacting with I suppose.

Confidence can also be faked, by most people and very well. That's yet another argument against confidence. You can't tell the difference between fake and real confidence.

(edited 9 years ago)

Reply 6

Mike9910

OP

3

Original post by wsxcde

A lot of people are under condifent, there are probably far more people who cant get into a relationship simply because they are under confident, not putting themselves out there enough, not taking chances and talking to new people but isolating themselves instead because of having a bad self image. Someone who thinks they have an ugly face cant improve their looks and will most likely ruin them if they try to by badly slapping a load of makeup on. They should improve their confidence because it'll make them get out more, meet more people, more likely to go on dates etc, and eventually meet someone who genuinely does like the way they look. Obviously just saying "be more confident" isnt great advice, because it's hard to just simply be more confident, over
giving advice of things which can improve their situation and/or confidence e.g. go jogging every morning, it will improve your figure and that you are exercising will also improve your confidence. But giving someone a confidence boost as well could really help them "you look great, youre a really nice and interesting person, you'll meet someone nice" etc rather than them thinking horribly of themselves and so self-conscious in anyone else's presence.

I would say the vast majority of people who can't get dates have low levels of commodities considered valuable in dating, most often looks.

I've very very rarely seen an attractive shy person, esp. of the male variety since male beauty is connected to, testosterone, strength and power inherently (and those things obviously help with confidence).

No male model Nick Bateman clones have posted on TSR complaining about being dateless. Nor have any Megan Fox clones.

Not to mention, girls here who struggle to attract much attention in dating are still given the advice of improving their confidence. This is despite the fact girls can take a passive role in dating and as I mentioned in one of my others posts being shy could actually improve their odds in dating.

I would say only 2% of the population (or less) have a truly ugly face that is not salvageable. Most of the pics I've seen posted here of "ugly" or "below average" people were from people who could see significant improvements in their appearances if they followed a better diet/dressed better or cleared up their skin, or if they got a hair transplant ( maybe their hairlines were too high) etc. A few of them did have cranial-facial abnormalities that need surgery to remedy but that is an option for them. Plastic Surgiry is not extreme IMO.

Yes I agree giving a confidence boost to someone may help their mental well being, but it won't improve their outcomes in the physical world. Such advice is only useful if this new mental wellness is used to take action. An ugly, poor, happy person might be happy but they are still ugly and poor. But then again, some do argue the purpose of life is to obtain happiness. Right? :rolleyes:

(edited 9 years ago)

Reply 7

icdjabtjk

1

Original post by Mike9910

I would say the vast majority of people who can't get dates have low levels of commodities considered valuable in dating, most often looks.

No male model Nick Bateman clones have posted on TSR complaining about being dateless. Nor have any Megan Fox clones.

Not to mention, girls here who struggle to attract much attention in dating are still given the advice of improving their confidence. This is despite the fact girls can take a passive role in dating and as I mentioned in one of my others posts being shy could actually improve their odds in dating.

I would say only 2% of the population (or less) have a truly ugly face that is not salvageable. Most of the pics I've seen posted here of "ugly" or "below average" people were from people who could see significant improvements in their appearances if they followed a better diet/dressed better or cleared up their skin, or if they got a hair transplant ( maybe their hairlines were too high) etc. A few of them did have cranial-facial abnormalities that need surgery to remedy but that is an option for them. Plastic Surgiry is not extreme IMO.

Yes I agree giving a confidence boost to someone may help their mental well being, but it won't improve their outcomes in the physical world. Such advice is only useful if this new mental wellness is used to take action. An ugly, poor, happy person might be happy but they are still ugly and poor. But then again, some do argue the purpose of life is to obtain happiness. Right? :rolleyes:

Being shy whilst on a date could be fine and is often not seen as a turn off from a male pov judging a female, but someone very unconfident would not even get to that stage of going on a date in the first place and can isolate themselves completely, whist someone more confident could have the confidence to put themselves out there, join a dating site, join societies at university etc. Someone with very low confidence would even be put off from doing these things and could turn down a guy asking them out because they dont have the confidence to believe he will actually like them once he gets to know them.

Reply 8

Mike9910

OP

3

Original post by wsxcde

Being shy whilst on a date could be fine and is often not seen as a turn off from a male pov judging a female, but someone very unconfident would not even get to that stage of going on a date in the first place and can isolate themselves completely, whist someone more confident could have the confidence to put themselves out there, join a dating site, join societies at university etc. Someone with very low confidence would even be put off from doing these things and could turn down a guy asking them out because they dont have the confidence to believe he will actually like them once he gets to know them.

Yes what you're saying is plausible however you're really having to stretch things to the extreme to make it so.

how many girls do you know of that cant date because their confidence is too low? I know of none.

Pretty much all the girls on TSR can get dates and boyfriends, they all have varying degrees of confidence and varying personalities, some are confident some are not, some are bitches, some are nice etc, so these things don't seem to matter, at least for women.

But these are not the girls who get the "be confident advice".

The girls who post on TSR (there are only a few of them) who complain about being dateless say they get NO ATTENTION at all from men, that is they're not even being asked out so they're getting rejected before their low confidence even plays a role in the outcome. These the type of girls who get the "be confident" advice".

The same pretty much applies to the dateless men: they get rejected before their personality and confidence can show. Yet no one ever tries to find out why and find ways to fix the reasons keeping these men dateless. All they get is the generic "be confident" mantra.

But I agree the standards in dating placed on men's behavior is much more onerous than it is for women. But you don't necessarily need confidence to approach women. 1) as I said confidence can easily be faked and 2) if a woman finds you attractive she'll be understanding enough to look past your nervous state when you approach her.

Not many people are truly confident approaching members of the opposite sex and I don't think you need to be or are expected to be confident in these situations anyway. Baring extreme examples that probably only exist in theory, such as the bumbling spluttering man who looks at the foor, your personality and confidence levels only need to be in the very wide parameters of normal behavior. Simply don't be a weirdo and don't be so nervous that you're physically shaking and your personality and confidence is good enough to date. if you're still getting rejected it's because you're not attractive enough.

Reply 9

icdjabtjk

1

Original post by Mike9910

Yes what you're saying is plausible however you're really having to stretch things to the extreme to make it so.

how many girls do you know of that cant date because their confidence is too low? I know of none.

Pretty much all the girls on TSR can get dates and boyfriends, they all have varying degrees of confidence and varying personalities, some are confident some are not, some are bitches, some are nice etc, so these things don't seem to matter, at least for women.

But these are not the girls who get the "be confident advice".

The girls who post on TSR (there are only a few of them) who complain about being dateless say they get NO ATTENTION at all from men, that is they're not even being asked out so they're getting rejected before their low confidence even plays a role in the outcome. These the type of girls who get the "be confident" advice".

The same pretty much applies to the dateless men: they get rejected before their personality and confidence can show. Yet no one ever tries to find out why and find ways to fix the reasons keeping these men dateless. All they get is the generic "be confident" mantra.

But I agree the standards in dating placed on men's behavior is much more onerous than it is for women. But you don't necessarily need confidence to approach women. 1) as I said confidence can easily be faked and 2) if a woman finds you attractive she'll be understanding enough to look past your nervous state when you approach her.

Not many people are truly confident approaching members of the opposite sex and I don't think you need to be or are expected to be confident in these situations anyway. Baring extreme examples that probably only exist in theory, such as the bumbling spluttering man who looks at the foor, your personality and confidence levels only need to be in the very wide parameters of normal behavior. Simply don't be a weirdo and don't be so nervous that you're physically shaking and your personality and confidence is good enough to date. if you're still getting rejected it's because you're not attractive enough.

i have known a lot of people who cant date because their confidence is too low and who dont do a lot of other things as well

Reply 10

SarcasticMel

2

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Du7jECNaxfc&t=2m14s

Reply 11

DanB1991

17

Original post by Mike9910

I would say that's is debatable and we could see a gender dichotomy here.

EG

There are studies that show women attract more men if they look happy, coy and receptive, confidence was either a negative or neutral factor.Which makes sense if you think about it from a man's perspective. A man is looking for signs that is chances of rejection are low, a confident women is arguably going to increase his risks of rejection. Confidence is also an expression of dominance and a woman being confident may lower a man's own confidence and ability to woo a woman.

I've seen allot of female social groups that are very hierarchical and a newcomer expressing lots of confidence is going to cause friction.

I can think of many other social scenarios when confidence would be more of a hindrance than help. It would depend on the social group you're interacting with I suppose.

Confidence can also be faked, by most people and very well. That's yet another argument against confidence. You can't tell the difference between fake and real confidence.

As a rule it's best to seem confident, main reason as you said women prefer a man who is happy, coy and receptive, which generally is the actual way a confident person will react.

Opposite way around, an over interested women may be seen as a negative thing, but I've certainly never seen a man been put off by a confident women. I know plenty of guys who like a woman who have the "knows what they want" kind of attitude.

Obviously it's not a universal thing, but generally speaking confidence is the key, especially the majority of the time people usually cite nerves getting in the way.

Want to ask someone out? You need confidence.

Want to act normal around someone, confidence needed.

Job interview... confidence needed

Want to make friends... confidence needed

Obviously you can be overconfident and as such coming across as either cocky or over-sure of oneself.

Also yes confidence can be faked, but generally speaking it can be very easy to tell if someone is faking it. Also you'll note a lot of advice suggests to 'seem' confident.