Would you give Labour a chance in 2020?
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Labour has no chance whatsoever to win if Corbyn is leading it. The sort of criticism and scrutiny he has received up to now is as nothing compared to the shitstorm that will envelop him and the Labour Party if he is the leader going into the next election.
I do not believe the British people will put in Number 10 a man who praised Hamas and Hezbollah's in his words quote "dedication to peace and social justice". Corbyn said this only a few weeks after the latter had killed six Jews in a suicide bombing in Bulgaria (the 2012 Burgas bombing). He made that comment knowing that the former's charter includes a call for the worldwide extermination of the Jews (Article 7 of the Hamas charter). Corbyn is friends with many dodgy Islamists like Ibrahim Hewitt, Dr Tamami and Abou Jahjah (the leader of the Paris terror attacks last November, Abaaoud was a member of Abou Jahjah's Sharia4Belgium organisation; can we have a Labour leader who is one acquaintance away from a terrorist who murdered over 100 Parisians?)
Questions will also be raised about the money Corbyn took from PressTV which is a department of the Iranian government. Corbyn has also taken money from the privatisation merchants Capita, which puts into perspective the claims that he is some kind of sainted man, rather than a grubby opportunist. I also do not believe the British people will accept as Prime Minister and Chancellor a unilateralist and a man who called for MI5 to be abolished, respectively.
Corbyn's supporters believe that because questions about his terrorist and anti-semitic connections have died down for a while that they got away with it, and the British people accept it. The reality is that a dossier of his countless friendships with terrorists, anti-semites and ne'er do wells will hit him like a tonne of bricks before the next election. There's no way he could survive it, and the people who are really counting on Labour (the disabled, the unemployed, the elderly, the vulnerable) will be sacrificed on the altar of the hard left's determination to go into a general election with a completely unelectable man at the helm
I do not believe the British people will put in Number 10 a man who praised Hamas and Hezbollah's in his words quote "dedication to peace and social justice". Corbyn said this only a few weeks after the latter had killed six Jews in a suicide bombing in Bulgaria (the 2012 Burgas bombing). He made that comment knowing that the former's charter includes a call for the worldwide extermination of the Jews (Article 7 of the Hamas charter). Corbyn is friends with many dodgy Islamists like Ibrahim Hewitt, Dr Tamami and Abou Jahjah (the leader of the Paris terror attacks last November, Abaaoud was a member of Abou Jahjah's Sharia4Belgium organisation; can we have a Labour leader who is one acquaintance away from a terrorist who murdered over 100 Parisians?)
Questions will also be raised about the money Corbyn took from PressTV which is a department of the Iranian government. Corbyn has also taken money from the privatisation merchants Capita, which puts into perspective the claims that he is some kind of sainted man, rather than a grubby opportunist. I also do not believe the British people will accept as Prime Minister and Chancellor a unilateralist and a man who called for MI5 to be abolished, respectively.
Corbyn's supporters believe that because questions about his terrorist and anti-semitic connections have died down for a while that they got away with it, and the British people accept it. The reality is that a dossier of his countless friendships with terrorists, anti-semites and ne'er do wells will hit him like a tonne of bricks before the next election. There's no way he could survive it, and the people who are really counting on Labour (the disabled, the unemployed, the elderly, the vulnerable) will be sacrificed on the altar of the hard left's determination to go into a general election with a completely unelectable man at the helm
(edited 8 years ago)
Original post by Davij038
Some excellent posts in this thread. I'll try and be objective:
I think simply that Corbyn wouldn't stand a chance against most possible Tory PM's, particularly somebody like Boris. There needs to be a coup against him like the Tories did for IDS and elect somebody agreeable to the wider public (So not Corbyn or his acolytes) and agreeable to the Labour Party (Nobody from before 2010, or being perceived as a Blairite (Rightly or wrongly)- Stella Creasy would be the ideal candidate I think.
Even then I think they are unlike in 2015 only going to get into power by forming some sort of electoral pact with the lib dems, greens and the Celtic nationalists. I think they're going to have to do a Cameron and agree to Referendums on PR and Trident.
I think simply that Corbyn wouldn't stand a chance against most possible Tory PM's, particularly somebody like Boris. There needs to be a coup against him like the Tories did for IDS and elect somebody agreeable to the wider public (So not Corbyn or his acolytes) and agreeable to the Labour Party (Nobody from before 2010, or being perceived as a Blairite (Rightly or wrongly)- Stella Creasy would be the ideal candidate I think.
Even then I think they are unlike in 2015 only going to get into power by forming some sort of electoral pact with the lib dems, greens and the Celtic nationalists. I think they're going to have to do a Cameron and agree to Referendums on PR and Trident.
A decent leader might stand a chance against Osbourne. Osbourne has personal ratings lower than Miliband and he makes Miliband look charismatic...
But which way do Labour go? Blue Labour (more right wing socially and protectionist economically) is the only way I can see that won't lose them hoards of votes and also eat into the UKIP/ working class-tory vote.
Original post by Bornblue
A decent leader might stand a chance against Osbourne. Osbourne has personal ratings lower than Miliband and he makes Miliband look charismatic...
But which way do Labour go? Blue Labour (more right wing socially and protectionist economically) is the only way I can see that won't lose them hoards of votes and also eat into the UKIP/ working class-tory vote.
But which way do Labour go? Blue Labour (more right wing socially and protectionist economically) is the only way I can see that won't lose them hoards of votes and also eat into the UKIP/ working class-tory vote.
If you look at Miliband's policies, individually they were actually quite popular and he was quite radical. Many of his announced policies were more radical than what McDonnell has proposed (Miliband wanted to break up the largest banks with a market share cap, create a government investment bank to compete with the City so McDonnell's idea there is not a new one, he wanted to increase corporation tax and place a tax on millionaire properties, of course he was going to repeal the bedroom tax and some of the anti-trade union legislation on the books). That's why I think it's really sad when Corbyn supporters who have only just joined the party claim that Miliband was a Blairite. Many of his policies went further than McDonnell has gone.
Policies like bringing railways back into public ownership, the energy price freeze, these things were popular. But he just didn't connect with the public and wasn't seen as "Prime Ministerial". If Labour could have a leader like Dan Jarvis and Milibandian policies, I'd rate its chances
(edited 8 years ago)
Original post by ckfeister
Conservatives were doing cuts to make it more efficient but now are just taking the pi** I'm centre-right but I think labour should have a chance in 2020, what do you all think?
Honestly, I think it would be better to jump off a bridge than ever vote for labour!
The fact is, Corbyn has won every way from the ideological perspective unless he dies or is assassinated.
1. Labour wins with him as a leader. The end of NuLab and red Tories.
2. Labour loses with him as a leader. The party will enter a brief civil war between the Corbyn supporters and the moderates / Blairites but it's the party membership who holds the power and not the voters or the Parliamentary Labour Party. A worst case scenario is that Labour goes into meltdown and ends up with fewer than 100MPs but the party membership is close to a million and about 75% of them support Corbyn. At this point Corbyn and his henchmen will act as iron-fisted dictators and kick out members who do not support his stance on many issues, including those who are MPs, in the name of purity. Tom Watson will probably be one of them.
3. Corbyn is deselected as leader. It will finally conclude that Old Labour and progressive politics in the Labour Party is dead and buried never to return again. If Corbyn can't restore Old Labour then who can? The Labour Party will be red Tories, middle England, austerity 2.0, and sacrificing principles over playing to win in the suburbs and the shires. Expect Corbyn to terminate his membership of Labour in disgust and support for the Green Party to rise significantly amongst the young and the anti-austerity brigade. Labour will also lose over half of their membership overnight.
1. Labour wins with him as a leader. The end of NuLab and red Tories.
2. Labour loses with him as a leader. The party will enter a brief civil war between the Corbyn supporters and the moderates / Blairites but it's the party membership who holds the power and not the voters or the Parliamentary Labour Party. A worst case scenario is that Labour goes into meltdown and ends up with fewer than 100MPs but the party membership is close to a million and about 75% of them support Corbyn. At this point Corbyn and his henchmen will act as iron-fisted dictators and kick out members who do not support his stance on many issues, including those who are MPs, in the name of purity. Tom Watson will probably be one of them.
3. Corbyn is deselected as leader. It will finally conclude that Old Labour and progressive politics in the Labour Party is dead and buried never to return again. If Corbyn can't restore Old Labour then who can? The Labour Party will be red Tories, middle England, austerity 2.0, and sacrificing principles over playing to win in the suburbs and the shires. Expect Corbyn to terminate his membership of Labour in disgust and support for the Green Party to rise significantly amongst the young and the anti-austerity brigade. Labour will also lose over half of their membership overnight.
Original post by DanielJames
Honestly, I think it would be better to jump off a bridge than ever vote for labour!
Then I'll jump of the cliff. His not that bad.
Original post by DanielJames
Honestly, I think it would be better to jump off a bridge than ever vote for labour!
Immature privilege here.
A lot more people are 'jumping off bridges' (killing themselves) under the Tories so you'd be one of the few to jump off on account of Labour.
What would you consider to be a decent ideological opposition to the Conservative Party?
The problem with Labour is that by the end of the 1980s they had lost their traditional support base - the blue collar industrial workers - so could no longer win a general election by focusing their policies around this section of the population. After a brief spell of populism and Tory economic policy under Blair the party now obtains the bulk of its support from an eclectic mixture of public sector workers, immigrants, Muslims, the progressives who read the Guardian, the poorest 10%, and the anti-austerity brigade. The white working class - which made up the bedrock of Labour voters in past decades and which they could still rely on 10 years ago - is now abandoning Labour for UKIP.
Despite the Conservative Party only having lukewarm support from the electorate, does it have a real opposition after factoring out the issue of the EU?
Of course, it is always an option for Labour to emulate the Conservative's economic policies but then everything begins to render down to personality politics. Change the party, change the PM, but do not change the policy. This is vaguely a return to the late 19th and early 20th centuries with the Liberal Party and the Conservative Party.
What would be the defence and foreign policies of a party that is electable considering that defence and foreign policy is a sticking point for Corbyn?
The problem with Labour is that by the end of the 1980s they had lost their traditional support base - the blue collar industrial workers - so could no longer win a general election by focusing their policies around this section of the population. After a brief spell of populism and Tory economic policy under Blair the party now obtains the bulk of its support from an eclectic mixture of public sector workers, immigrants, Muslims, the progressives who read the Guardian, the poorest 10%, and the anti-austerity brigade. The white working class - which made up the bedrock of Labour voters in past decades and which they could still rely on 10 years ago - is now abandoning Labour for UKIP.
Despite the Conservative Party only having lukewarm support from the electorate, does it have a real opposition after factoring out the issue of the EU?
Of course, it is always an option for Labour to emulate the Conservative's economic policies but then everything begins to render down to personality politics. Change the party, change the PM, but do not change the policy. This is vaguely a return to the late 19th and early 20th centuries with the Liberal Party and the Conservative Party.
What would be the defence and foreign policies of a party that is electable considering that defence and foreign policy is a sticking point for Corbyn?
Original post by Arran90
3. Corbyn is deselected as leader. It will finally conclude that Old Labour and progressive politics in the Labour Party is dead and buried never to return again. If Corbyn can't restore Old Labour then who can? The Labour Party will be red Tories, middle England, austerity 2.0, and sacrificing principles over playing to win in the suburbs and the shires. Expect Corbyn to terminate his membership of Labour in disgust and support for the Green Party to rise significantly amongst the young and the anti-austerity brigade. Labour will also lose over half of their membership overnight.
Thing is, even his good points are outweighed by his idiotic views on foreign policy, immigration, support for terrorist groups, disarmament, etc...
Original post by MildredMalone
Thing is, even his good points are outweighed by his idiotic views on foreign policy, immigration, support for terrorist groups, disarmament, etc...
As i've said before, the left of the Labour got greedy and are paying the price for it. There are no shortage of Labour MP's who want nationalisation and higher taxes/an anti-austerity platform but who broadly support the status quo on the union, foreign policy and the monarchy (basically, don't hate our history) but no, the left have tried to have their cake and eat it but are now finding that the electorate considers the taste of the cake to be a bit putrid.
Original post by Little Popcorns
Immature privilege here.
A lot more people are 'jumping off bridges' (killing themselves) under the Tories so you'd be one of the few to jump off on account of Labour.
A lot more people are 'jumping off bridges' (killing themselves) under the Tories so you'd be one of the few to jump off on account of Labour.
If by privilege you mean you think I was born into a rich family or a privileged background, think again. I'm from a family who one might assume would vote for labour, and you'd probably be right. My parents don't earn much, heck we even live in a housing association house, and I am the first one in, not only my immediate family but out of my whole family (which consists of many dozens of people), to go to university. But yet I could never vote labour. It's a non-progressional party in terms of economic growth and also their stance on welfare is irrational. I'll give you just one example of why I would never vote for labour. I live in an area which could be considered as a 'benefit area' where many many families are on benefits. Its not through circumstances that they live this way, its through choice. When comparing these families to my family, there is something clearly wrong with the system as my family's finances clearly do not allow us to have the 'lavish' lifestyle of those on benefits. The conservatives are cutting benefits, and rightly so. It should not be a lifestyle choice to live off the state but a safety net for those who genuinely need it. Labour's view is to maintain the status quo, to allow these types of people, who clearly are able to work, to keep up the lifestyle they have. As the old poster saying goes 'LABOUR ISN'T WORKING'!
Original post by DanielJames
If by privilege you mean you think I was born into a rich family or a privileged background, think again. I'm from a family who one might assume would vote for labour, and you'd probably be right. My parents don't earn much, heck we even live in a housing association house, and I am the first one in, not only my immediate family but out of my whole family (which consists of many dozens of people), to go to university. But yet I could never vote labour. It's a non-progressional party in terms of economic growth and also their stance on welfare is irrational. I'll give you just one example of why I would never vote for labour. I live in an area which could be considered as a 'benefit area' where many many families are on benefits. Its not through circumstances that they live this way, its through choice. When comparing these families to my family, there is something clearly wrong with the system as my family's finances clearly do not allow us to have the 'lavish' lifestyle of those on benefits. The conservatives are cutting benefits, and rightly so. It should not be a lifestyle choice to live off the state but a safety net for those who genuinely need it. Labour's view is to maintain the status quo, to allow these types of people, who clearly are able to work, to keep up the lifestyle they have. As the old poster saying goes 'LABOUR ISN'T WORKING'!
There is the argument between a citizen's income and the Protestant work ethic. The progressive left like the Green Party supports the concept of a citizen's income whereas Labour in it's traditional form (the clue is in the name) supports the Protestant work ethic.
Read my comment about technology killing jobs
http://www.thestudentroom.co.uk/showthread.php?t=3714303
This is something that the Protestant work ethic types haven't really got their head around.
Original post by MildredMalone
Thing is, even his good points are outweighed by his idiotic views on foreign policy, immigration, support for terrorist groups, disarmament, etc...
The party elected him. To me, this puts grave doubts on the judgment of the entity of the party as a whole. I said this when they elected Milioband - who is so obviously unelectable - and I said it with Corbyn. How can you trust a party which elects an unelectable leader? It just shows a lack of perception regarding what the public wants and, quite frankly, utter delusion in the case of electing Corbyn. What were they thinking?
Original post by KimKallstrom
The party elected him. To me, this puts grave doubts on the judgment of the entity of the party as a whole. I said this when they elected Milioband - who is so obviously unelectable - and I said it with Corbyn. How can you trust a party which elects an unelectable leader? It just shows a lack of perception regarding what the public wants and, quite frankly, utter delusion in the case of electing Corbyn. What were they thinking?
To be fair though, a number of people joined Labour specifically to vote him in, because they knew he'd be useless.
Original post by DanielJames
If by privilege you mean you think I was born into a rich family or a privileged background, think again. I'm from a family who one might assume would vote for labour, and you'd probably be right. My parents don't earn much, heck we even live in a housing association house, and I am the first one in, not only my immediate family but out of my whole family (which consists of many dozens of people), to go to university. But yet I could never vote labour. It's a non-progressional party in terms of economic growth and also their stance on welfare is irrational. I'll give you just one example of why I would never vote for labour. I live in an area which could be considered as a 'benefit area' where many many families are on benefits. Its not through circumstances that they live this way, its through choice. When comparing these families to my family, there is something clearly wrong with the system as my family's finances clearly do not allow us to have the 'lavish' lifestyle of those on benefits. The conservatives are cutting benefits, and rightly so. It should not be a lifestyle choice to live off the state but a safety net for those who genuinely need it. Labour's view is to maintain the status quo, to allow these types of people, who clearly are able to work, to keep up the lifestyle they have. As the old poster saying goes 'LABOUR ISN'T WORKING'!
I've tried to explain all this to these people before. But barely any of them have any idea what these areas are like so they just don't get it. They'll never grasp how rife abuse of the system was among people during the Labour years. You have to see it yourself to believe it, unfortunately. Middle-class, cocooned social justice warriors living in their bubbles all their lives don't understand the people in this country, who they are or what they want.
Original post by Rakas21
As i've said before, the left of the Labour got greedy and are paying the price for it. There are no shortage of Labour MP's who want nationalisation and higher taxes/an anti-austerity platform but who broadly support the status quo on the union, foreign policy and the monarchy (basically, don't hate our history) but no, the left have tried to have their cake and eat it but are now finding that the electorate considers the taste of the cake to be a bit putrid.
I think it is more that Corbyn was the only one who got nominated as a potential leader. These, for want of a better word, moderates on foreign policy etc were just hiding away and not offering to be leader. The rest of the candidates did not fit you description. The MP's you talk about were not an option. It was Corbyn or carry on as usual.
Original post by KimKallstrom
I've tried to explain all this to these people before. But barely any of them have any idea what these areas are like so they just don't get it. They'll never grasp how rife abuse of the system was among people during the Labour years. You have to see it yourself to believe it, unfortunately. Middle-class, cocooned social justice warriors living in their bubbles all their lives don't understand the people in this country, who they are or what they want.
But of course you understand everything.
Shocker to see you use the 'sjw' dig again. Well done for not mentioning owen jones though.
Posted from TSR Mobile
Original post by Arran90
What would you consider to be a decent ideological opposition to the Conservative Party?
The problem with Labour is that by the end of the 1980s they had lost their traditional support base - the blue collar industrial workers - so could no longer win a general election by focusing their policies around this section of the population. After a brief spell of populism and Tory economic policy under Blair the party now obtains the bulk of its support from an eclectic mixture of public sector workers, immigrants, Muslims, the progressives who read the Guardian, the poorest 10%, and the anti-austerity brigade. The white working class - which made up the bedrock of Labour voters in past decades and which they could still rely on 10 years ago - is now abandoning Labour for UKIP.
Despite the Conservative Party only having lukewarm support from the electorate, does it have a real opposition after factoring out the issue of the EU?
Of course, it is always an option for Labour to emulate the Conservative's economic policies but then everything begins to render down to personality politics. Change the party, change the PM, but do not change the policy. This is vaguely a return to the late 19th and early 20th centuries with the Liberal Party and the Conservative Party.
What would be the defence and foreign policies of a party that is electable considering that defence and foreign policy is a sticking point for Corbyn?
The problem with Labour is that by the end of the 1980s they had lost their traditional support base - the blue collar industrial workers - so could no longer win a general election by focusing their policies around this section of the population. After a brief spell of populism and Tory economic policy under Blair the party now obtains the bulk of its support from an eclectic mixture of public sector workers, immigrants, Muslims, the progressives who read the Guardian, the poorest 10%, and the anti-austerity brigade. The white working class - which made up the bedrock of Labour voters in past decades and which they could still rely on 10 years ago - is now abandoning Labour for UKIP.
Despite the Conservative Party only having lukewarm support from the electorate, does it have a real opposition after factoring out the issue of the EU?
Of course, it is always an option for Labour to emulate the Conservative's economic policies but then everything begins to render down to personality politics. Change the party, change the PM, but do not change the policy. This is vaguely a return to the late 19th and early 20th centuries with the Liberal Party and the Conservative Party.
What would be the defence and foreign policies of a party that is electable considering that defence and foreign policy is a sticking point for Corbyn?
I think labour going to come into a surprise in the future, Corbyn will attract new voters not just every student is ON TSR... besides, conservatives true colours are now showing, I'm going to be middle/upper class in future and I don't like they cutting taxes and cutting disabled benefits.
I think trust to David Cameron will begin to slim as the truth begins to come out, people will have to pick... more choas for public services or get labour in to sort this mess out aka. investment for the future.
Original post by ckfeister
I think labour going to come into a surprise in the future, Corbyn will attract new voters not just every student is ON TSR... besides, conservatives true colours are now showing, I'm going to be middle/upper class in future and I don't like they cutting taxes and cutting disabled benefits.
I think trust to David Cameron will begin to slim as the truth begins to come out, people will have to pick... more choas for public services or get labour in to sort this mess out aka. investment for the future.
I think trust to David Cameron will begin to slim as the truth begins to come out, people will have to pick... more choas for public services or get labour in to sort this mess out aka. investment for the future.
Sort this mess out? More like mess this mess up even more. Just look at pre-2010. Have fun voting Labour anyway.
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