Should Cannabis be legalised?
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Original post by DSilva
No that wasn't your argument. Your argument was that legalising marjuiana would lead to more people doing 'harder' drugs. That's a claim which requires evidence. You don't have the evidence because it doesn't exist. The 'gateway' theory is unsubstantiated and discretited. You'd think that you'd have researched it, but I guess that was too much effort.
It's interesting you seem to be that caught up about evidence, yet have produced none yourself.
In terms of the gateway theory, my argument was that legalising cannabis would remove one of the biggest barriers againsts its use and therefore more people (particularly teenagers and young adults) would likely consume it. I never said all cannabis users turn to cocaine, as of course there is no evidence to support that.
However there is quite substantial evidence around an assocation between hard and soft drug use, evidenced by my Amsterdam case study. The Guardian (of all papers!) even ran a story on this stating that "research generally supports the notion that cannabis use is a risk factor for subsequent use of 'harder' illicit drugs". I concede there is not a direct scientific 'causation', but there is a proven link between those who take cannabis and those who take harder drugs. As I previously stated, I'm risk-averse when it comes to drugs because it's our police and NHS who have to pick up the pieces. I cannot reasonably believe our society needs easier access to them.
No! Sadiq Khan is the biggest d*ck going. Legalisation of cannabis is the last thing we need particularly in a high density population area like London. It stinks to the high heavens and we all get inflicted with the stench of it whether we like it or not. Use of it in London en-masse would mean the place stinking of it 24/7 no getting away from it.
Then add on top of that the mental health problems it can cause or make worse. Then also add the cancers it can cause, weed these days is usually many times stronger than that used back in the seventies so long term use far more likely to cause cancer particularly when combined with smoking. Long term use of course in that respect can just mean around 10 years or so. The number of younger people getting cancer these days, yes it can be many reasons but my guess is in many cases recreational drug use is behind a lot of it.
Crime, well you have except that there is no perfect solution, legalising weed won't get rid of the problem around it being criminal it just causes other problems and sone of the original problems perpetuate.
Yes people are more relaxed and act less like kn*bs towards each other but that is perhaps the only benefit and not naturally how life is supposed to be.
I don't think it's an easy to solve problem it's really just something that we have to continue tackling with an imperfect solution of it being criminal as no other perfect solution exists, at least not yet at present.
Then add on top of that the mental health problems it can cause or make worse. Then also add the cancers it can cause, weed these days is usually many times stronger than that used back in the seventies so long term use far more likely to cause cancer particularly when combined with smoking. Long term use of course in that respect can just mean around 10 years or so. The number of younger people getting cancer these days, yes it can be many reasons but my guess is in many cases recreational drug use is behind a lot of it.
Crime, well you have except that there is no perfect solution, legalising weed won't get rid of the problem around it being criminal it just causes other problems and sone of the original problems perpetuate.
Yes people are more relaxed and act less like kn*bs towards each other but that is perhaps the only benefit and not naturally how life is supposed to be.
I don't think it's an easy to solve problem it's really just something that we have to continue tackling with an imperfect solution of it being criminal as no other perfect solution exists, at least not yet at present.
Original post by Gavin2016
Yes people are more relaxed and act less like kn*bs towards each other but that is perhaps the only benefit and not naturally how life is supposed to be.
Yes people are more relaxed and act less like kn*bs towards each other but that is perhaps the only benefit and not naturally how life is supposed to be.
I'm always surprised how critics never accept that many people (millions) simply like getting high, as if it isn't even a factor worth mentioning. Eating candy serves next to no societal purpose either but we don't pretend we don't understand that sweet things are tasty, do we?
If you feel strongly that enjoyment and lack of conflict is 'not how life should be' then you can't be too surprised or offended when people give you a funny look and keep doing whatever thing it was they enjoy anyway.
Following on from the ''I'm always surprised how quick people are to refuse to understand people like getting high' deal, I've often felt the obvious double standards about booze,
As a society we collectively take so much pain from those who can't handle alcohol... fighting in the streets, beating up their loved ones, smashing glass, screaming, spraying their bodily waste over our streets and possessions, and mowing us down with vehicles... we'll happy deplore the person doing these things, but we'll almost never ask why they had a drink the first place, that motivation is accepted without Q, Yet a lot of these exact same people refuse to accept that recreational drugs can be recreational as some strange article of puritanical faith
Like you can tell me you don't approve of drugs, but trying to pretend to my face they aren't fun is stupid and the worst attempt as gaslighting possible 
As a society we collectively take so much pain from those who can't handle alcohol... fighting in the streets, beating up their loved ones, smashing glass, screaming, spraying their bodily waste over our streets and possessions, and mowing us down with vehicles... we'll happy deplore the person doing these things, but we'll almost never ask why they had a drink the first place, that motivation is accepted without Q, Yet a lot of these exact same people refuse to accept that recreational drugs can be recreational as some strange article of puritanical faith
Like you can tell me you don't approve of drugs, but trying to pretend to my face they aren't fun is stupid and the worst attempt as gaslighting possible Original post by StriderHort
Following on from the ''I'm always surprised how quick people are to refuse to understand people like getting high' deal, I've often felt the obvious double standards about booze,
As a society we collectively take so much pain from those who can't handle alcohol... fighting in the streets, beating up their loved ones, smashing glass, screaming, spraying their bodily waste over our streets and possessions, and mowing us down with vehicles... we'll happy deplore the person doing these things, but we'll almost never ask why they had a drink the first place, that motivation is accepted without Q, Yet a lot of these exact same people refuse to accept that recreational drugs can be recreational as some strange article of puritanical faith Like you can tell me you don't approve of drugs, but trying to pretend to my face they aren't fun is stupid and the worst attempt as gaslighting possible
As a society we collectively take so much pain from those who can't handle alcohol... fighting in the streets, beating up their loved ones, smashing glass, screaming, spraying their bodily waste over our streets and possessions, and mowing us down with vehicles... we'll happy deplore the person doing these things, but we'll almost never ask why they had a drink the first place, that motivation is accepted without Q, Yet a lot of these exact same people refuse to accept that recreational drugs can be recreational as some strange article of puritanical faith
Like you can tell me you don't approve of drugs, but trying to pretend to my face they aren't fun is stupid and the worst attempt as gaslighting possible I would tend to take the view that alcohol is the least problematic way for someone to get their fix of enjoyment, fun, relaxation, etc. Problem free, no just least problematic for society and people in general. Health problems don't tend to show up till old age for most or even not at all, some of course abuse alcohol or their bodies don't take well to it but they are the small exception. Tobacco smoking seems to be more problematic than alcohol in terms of health problems but it tends to be deemed by many societies to try and tolerate it as best as possible. End of the day their is a dividing line between what is reasonably tolerable and what is not. Cannabis tends not to be tolerable to most societies due to the stench it inflicts upon others and the bad mental health and physical health consequences it inflicts in the relative short term. They tend to be consequences that are deemed to bad for society in general to put up with. Can you imagine being at work and every few moments the stench of weed drifts across for here, there and everywhere and having to put up with it wrenching every moment you smell it? It would become intolerable then having to keep making your way past people with mental health issues that are acting out of sorts and creating not pleasant scenes to be around?
We can't all end up sitting around freaking out with anxiety or flying of the handle because our brain is fried then calling for an ambulance and not getting one because they are the same way lol. Years ago I was in Amsterdam on holiday and every so often there was the stench of weed drift over, it wasn't pleasant and Amsterdam didn't feel a safe place. I kept looking over my shoulder every so often at people walking behind me. Honestly the prostitution district I walked through out of interest (but not to use) didn't bother me, a few pimps on the door were hassling for customers which could be done without but in general prostitution didn't seem a big problem, weed however was. In comparison I far enjoyed Copenhagen more, the same bicycle style of living but a much more cleaner environment far more pleasant to be around, much better way of living. I get all the arguments that alcohol & tobacco smoking isn't without problems either it's just a case of what every we do to ourselves tends to come back on ourselves at some point.
When I think of the amount of money I have spent on car driving over the years and consider if I cycled more (but not completely of course sone stuff you just need a car for) then I could have saved a lot of money and been a lot fitter. That said cycle lanes were not that numerous when I was younger so it could be quite dangerous. Still they are not quite perfect sone run out half way through to a destination etc but I tend to think we are better off creating a better environment in which to live as it can be reciprocal and put people in a better mood and place. I think the more we cop out and look for a quick fix solution of getting high on stuff that in the short, medium and long term just causes worse problems.
(edited 1 year ago)
Possession of cannabis should not be illegal – nor should possession of other drugs. It's the wrong way to deal with a social and health problem and criminalisation has a long record of failure.
I'm more unsure about legalising the sale of drugs. For example, I think it would be irresponsible for the sale of, say, heroin to be a legal thing. With cannabis I'm genuinely borderline about whether we should have a regulated market for it (i.e. cannabis at the tobacco counter in Tesco) or just allow people to grow a couple of plants in their home.
I'm more unsure about legalising the sale of drugs. For example, I think it would be irresponsible for the sale of, say, heroin to be a legal thing. With cannabis I'm genuinely borderline about whether we should have a regulated market for it (i.e. cannabis at the tobacco counter in Tesco) or just allow people to grow a couple of plants in their home.
Original post by Saracen's Fez
Possession of cannabis should not be illegal – nor should possession of other drugs. It's the wrong way to deal with a social and health problem and criminalisation has a long record of failure.
I'm more unsure about legalising the sale of drugs. For example, I think it would be irresponsible for the sale of, say, heroin to be a legal thing. With cannabis I'm genuinely borderline about whether we should have a regulated market for it (i.e. cannabis at the tobacco counter in Tesco) or just allow people to grow a couple of plants in their home.
I'm more unsure about legalising the sale of drugs. For example, I think it would be irresponsible for the sale of, say, heroin to be a legal thing. With cannabis I'm genuinely borderline about whether we should have a regulated market for it (i.e. cannabis at the tobacco counter in Tesco) or just allow people to grow a couple of plants in their home.
Problem comes that if you legalise it's possession it tends to end up with greater proliferation. People go around saying, 'Its legal!' and hence the inference is, 'its ok'. That of course is far from the truth that's 'its ok' it can have very harmful effects for the individual and those around them. Fuelling drug addictions can end up in many crimes being committed and a less safe society. Think of families with children, would you want children being brought up in society where possession of currently illegal drugs is legal? All sorts of weird and bad sh*t would be going down. As said above there is no easy solution to the problem. The problem with drugs is that they are seen as an easy solution to the problem, but in reality the quick fix doesn't hold for long like a bad DIY bodge job done on the quick & cheap. Best we can do is push towards a better society in which to live, more pleasant surroundings, green spaces, etc, that and accept that life isn't always a bed of roses and sometimes we need to suck up the **** however unpleasant it is and accept that it happens.
Original post by Gavin2016
I would tend to take the view that alcohol is the least problematic way for someone to get their fix of enjoyment, fun, relaxation, etc. Problem free, no just least problematic for society and people in general. Health problems don't tend to show up till old age for most or even not at all, some of course abuse alcohol or their bodies don't take well to it but they are the small exception. Tobacco smoking seems to be more problematic than alcohol in terms of health problems but it tends to be deemed by many societies to try and tolerate it as best as possible. End of the day their is a dividing line between what is reasonably tolerable and what is not. Cannabis tends not to be tolerable to most societies due to the stench it inflicts upon others and the bad mental health and physical health consequences it inflicts in the relative short term. They tend to be consequences that are deemed to bad for society in general to put up with. Can you imagine being at work and every few moments the stench of weed drifts across for here, there and everywhere and having to put up with it wrenching every moment you smell it? It would become intolerable then having to keep making your way past people with mental health issues that are acting out of sorts and creating not pleasant scenes to be around?
We can't all end up sitting around freaking out with anxiety or flying of the handle because our brain is fried then calling for an ambulance and not getting one because they are the same way lol. Years ago I was in Amsterdam on holiday and every so often there was the stench of weed drift over, it wasn't pleasant and Amsterdam didn't feel a safe place. I kept looking over my shoulder every so often at people walking behind me. Honestly the prostitution district I walked through out of interest (but not to use) didn't bother me, a few pimps on the door were hassling for customers which could be done without but in general prostitution didn't seem a big problem, weed however was. In comparison I far enjoyed Copenhagen more, the same bicycle style of living but a much more cleaner environment far more pleasant to be around, much better way of living. I get all the arguments that alcohol & tobacco smoking isn't without problems either it's just a case of what every we do to ourselves tends to come back on ourselves at some point.
When I think of the amount of money I have spent on car driving over the years and consider if I cycled more (but not completely of course sone stuff you just need a car for) then I could have saved a lot of money and been a lot fitter. That said cycle lanes were not that numerous when I was younger so it could be quite dangerous. Still they are not quite perfect sone run out half way through to a destination etc but I tend to think we are better off creating a better environment in which to live as it can be reciprocal and put people in a better mood and place. I think the more we cop out and look for a quick fix solution of getting high on stuff that in the short, medium and long term just causes worse problems.
We can't all end up sitting around freaking out with anxiety or flying of the handle because our brain is fried then calling for an ambulance and not getting one because they are the same way lol. Years ago I was in Amsterdam on holiday and every so often there was the stench of weed drift over, it wasn't pleasant and Amsterdam didn't feel a safe place. I kept looking over my shoulder every so often at people walking behind me. Honestly the prostitution district I walked through out of interest (but not to use) didn't bother me, a few pimps on the door were hassling for customers which could be done without but in general prostitution didn't seem a big problem, weed however was. In comparison I far enjoyed Copenhagen more, the same bicycle style of living but a much more cleaner environment far more pleasant to be around, much better way of living. I get all the arguments that alcohol & tobacco smoking isn't without problems either it's just a case of what every we do to ourselves tends to come back on ourselves at some point.
When I think of the amount of money I have spent on car driving over the years and consider if I cycled more (but not completely of course sone stuff you just need a car for) then I could have saved a lot of money and been a lot fitter. That said cycle lanes were not that numerous when I was younger so it could be quite dangerous. Still they are not quite perfect sone run out half way through to a destination etc but I tend to think we are better off creating a better environment in which to live as it can be reciprocal and put people in a better mood and place. I think the more we cop out and look for a quick fix solution of getting high on stuff that in the short, medium and long term just causes worse problems.
How many people end up in A&E on the weekend from alcohol consumption Vs weed? How many people die from alcohol related diseases Vs cannabis? How much antisocial behaviour results from drunkenness Vs being stoned?
I'm guessing you didn't take the time to visit Christiania when you were in Copenhagen...
Correct me if I’m wrong but cannabis does less damage to health than smoking cigarettes as far as I know and they are legal under restrictions so surely cannabis should be the same in my opinion
Original post by Captain Haddock
How many people end up in A&E on the weekend from alcohol consumption Vs weed? How many people die from alcohol related diseases Vs cannabis? How much antisocial behaviour results from drunkenness Vs being stoned?
I'm guessing you didn't take the time to visit Christiania when you were in Copenhagen...
I'm guessing you didn't take the time to visit Christiania when you were in Copenhagen...
Think you mean the drug area of Copenhagen, no I was happy to pass that by on the canal boat and not venture in. Apparently drug use was mainly limited to that confined area which I was glad not to visit.
You can pick out and target questions at whim to try and suggest that cannabis is not as harmful as smoking tobacco or alcohol. End of the day cannabis use has bad consequences for most in the short, medium and long term that means it shouldn't be used in society, it rarely ends well for the user.
End of the day we need a productive society, people on weed particularly long term tend not to be productive members of society. If we all end up on weed, food ends up not getting to supermarkets, bills not paid and we all end up starving and wondering why someone else is picking up the tab on all of these things. Let's not go there I say.
Original post by Gavin2016
I would tend to take the view that alcohol is the least problematic way for someone to get their fix of enjoyment, fun, relaxation, etc. Problem free, no just least problematic for society and people in general. Health problems don't tend to show up till old age for most or even not at all, some of course abuse alcohol or their bodies don't take well to it but they are the small exception. Tobacco smoking seems to be more problematic than alcohol in terms of health problems but it tends to be deemed by many societies to try and tolerate it as best as possible. End of the day their is a dividing line between what is reasonably tolerable and what is not. Cannabis tends not to be tolerable to most societies due to the stench it inflicts upon others and the bad mental health and physical health consequences it inflicts in the relative short term. They tend to be consequences that are deemed to bad for society in general to put up with. Can you imagine being at work and every few moments the stench of weed drifts across for here, there and everywhere and having to put up with it wrenching every moment you smell it? It would become intolerable then having to keep making your way past people with mental health issues that are acting out of sorts and creating not pleasant scenes to be around?
We can't all end up sitting around freaking out with anxiety or flying of the handle because our brain is fried then calling for an ambulance and not getting one because they are the same way lol. Years ago I was in Amsterdam on holiday and every so often there was the stench of weed drift over, it wasn't pleasant and Amsterdam didn't feel a safe place. I kept looking over my shoulder every so often at people walking behind me. Honestly the prostitution district I walked through out of interest (but not to use) didn't bother me, a few pimps on the door were hassling for customers which could be done without but in general prostitution didn't seem a big problem, weed however was. In comparison I far enjoyed Copenhagen more, the same bicycle style of living but a much more cleaner environment far more pleasant to be around, much better way of living. I get all the arguments that alcohol & tobacco smoking isn't without problems either it's just a case of what every we do to ourselves tends to come back on ourselves at some point.
When I think of the amount of money I have spent on car driving over the years and consider if I cycled more (but not completely of course sone stuff you just need a car for) then I could have saved a lot of money and been a lot fitter. That said cycle lanes were not that numerous when I was younger so it could be quite dangerous. Still they are not quite perfect sone run out half way through to a destination etc but I tend to think we are better off creating a better environment in which to live as it can be reciprocal and put people in a better mood and place. I think the more we cop out and look for a quick fix solution of getting high on stuff that in the short, medium and long term just causes worse problems.
We can't all end up sitting around freaking out with anxiety or flying of the handle because our brain is fried then calling for an ambulance and not getting one because they are the same way lol. Years ago I was in Amsterdam on holiday and every so often there was the stench of weed drift over, it wasn't pleasant and Amsterdam didn't feel a safe place. I kept looking over my shoulder every so often at people walking behind me. Honestly the prostitution district I walked through out of interest (but not to use) didn't bother me, a few pimps on the door were hassling for customers which could be done without but in general prostitution didn't seem a big problem, weed however was. In comparison I far enjoyed Copenhagen more, the same bicycle style of living but a much more cleaner environment far more pleasant to be around, much better way of living. I get all the arguments that alcohol & tobacco smoking isn't without problems either it's just a case of what every we do to ourselves tends to come back on ourselves at some point.
When I think of the amount of money I have spent on car driving over the years and consider if I cycled more (but not completely of course sone stuff you just need a car for) then I could have saved a lot of money and been a lot fitter. That said cycle lanes were not that numerous when I was younger so it could be quite dangerous. Still they are not quite perfect sone run out half way through to a destination etc but I tend to think we are better off creating a better environment in which to live as it can be reciprocal and put people in a better mood and place. I think the more we cop out and look for a quick fix solution of getting high on stuff that in the short, medium and long term just causes worse problems.
PRSOM
Original post by Fenneko
Nonsense. A society needs direction and rules. People shouldn't have the freedom to fail. After all, it's a government's duty to make sure it's steering its inhabitants towards prosperity. Recreational drugs, like cannabis, are nothing but harmful to its users, and also to those who try to live responsible lives.
Nothing good can come from the legalisation of cannabis. It will be one of the single greatest mistakes we will ever make, and one that is irreversible.
Nothing good can come from the legalisation of cannabis. It will be one of the single greatest mistakes we will ever make, and one that is irreversible.
This all applies to alcohol, which is one of the most damaging recreational drugs.
Ah, the weed stigma is in full-flow I see. Anyone who values freedom shouldn't be looking at the debate through the lens of "what's the benefit?" but should instead be asking "what's the harm?". There are risks associated with cannabis use - nobody denies that - but the question is whether the risks are great enough to warrant the drug being criminalised. The risk to both the user & others is less than the risk posed by alcohol and tobacco.
https://www.ias.org.uk/uploads/pdf/News%20stories/dnutt-lancet-011110.pdf
Perhaps we should pose a different question - I wonder if the arguments would be any different. If, in an alternate reality, cannabis was discovered today - and we had the same understanding about the risks associated with it as we do now - would you make it illegal or legal?
https://www.ias.org.uk/uploads/pdf/News%20stories/dnutt-lancet-011110.pdf
Perhaps we should pose a different question - I wonder if the arguments would be any different. If, in an alternate reality, cannabis was discovered today - and we had the same understanding about the risks associated with it as we do now - would you make it illegal or legal?
Yes but this needs to be accompanied with high-quality drug education. We need to stop this "alcohol exceptionalism" which separates alcohol as somehow different from recreational drugs and make sure people are keyed up to the dangers. We also need to dispel myths that cannabis is essentially harmless and produce more high-quality research into the possible mental health risks. Ideally smoking should not be promoted as the preferred ROA, and we should look at THC vapes or oral preparations instead.
There is nothing wrong with using substances to enhance or create an experience, but we should be very aware of possible dangers. There are drugs that are theoretically safer than alcohol but used as recklessly and carelessly as alcohol is will end in disaster. (which seems weird to say) I guess the fact that alcohol is very "forgiving" in the short-term is a positive feature of it.
There is nothing wrong with using substances to enhance or create an experience, but we should be very aware of possible dangers. There are drugs that are theoretically safer than alcohol but used as recklessly and carelessly as alcohol is will end in disaster. (which seems weird to say) I guess the fact that alcohol is very "forgiving" in the short-term is a positive feature of it.
(edited 1 year ago)
Original post by Burridge
Perhaps we should pose a different question - I wonder if the arguments would be any different. If, in an alternate reality, cannabis was discovered today - and we had the same understanding about the risks associated with it as we do now - would you make it illegal or legal?
Does cannabis also include skunk weed, spice and hashish?
Original post by londonmyst
Does cannabis also include skunk weed, spice and hashish?
Same family of chemicals, completely different drug! (or rather concoction of drugs)
(edited 1 year ago)
Original post by _gcx
This all applies to alcohol, which is one of the most damaging recreational drugs.
Cannabis users often use the alcohol argument as in alcohol is allowed and is so bad so why shouldn't cannabis. We could argue all day as to which is the worst and not get anywhere. Prohibited of alcohol was tried in America and didn't work due to the mob getting too powerful due to it proliferation on an underground basis. So overall I would say alcohol ended up being accepted by society at large on a legal basis as the least of two evils. If society allows alcohol it can still function relatively well so alcohol has been accept over weed on that basis. Basically unless someone becomes an alcoholic most people get drink occasionally and perhaps a day of work. Weed users on the other hand tend to be as feckless as can be and many end up too lazy to do any work, the are always doing 'stuff'. That's of course not taking into account the dreadful infernal stench of weed everyone else would have to endure on a more frequent basis with legalisation.
Original post by _gcx
Same family of chemicals, completely different drug!
Quite a few spice 'wholesale level' manufacturing criminals include some skunk or hashish in some of their versions of the product.
(edited 1 year ago)
Original post by londonmyst
Quite a few spice 'wholesale level' manufacturing criminals include some skunk or hashish in some of their versions of the product.
Paracetamol and diphenhydramine are sometimes found as adulterants in heroin. I don't see the point here.
Original post by Burridge
Ah, the weed stigma is in full-flow I see. Anyone who values freedom shouldn't be looking at the debate through the lens of "what's the benefit?" but should instead be asking "what's the harm?". There are risks associated with cannabis use - nobody denies that - but the question is whether the risks are great enough to warrant the drug being criminalised. The risk to both the user & others is less than the risk posed by alcohol and tobacco.
https://www.ias.org.uk/uploads/pdf/News%20stories/dnutt-lancet-011110.pdf
Perhaps we should pose a different question - I wonder if the arguments would be any different. If, in an alternate reality, cannabis was discovered today - and we had the same understanding about the risks associated with it as we do now - would you make it illegal or legal?
https://www.ias.org.uk/uploads/pdf/News%20stories/dnutt-lancet-011110.pdf
Perhaps we should pose a different question - I wonder if the arguments would be any different. If, in an alternate reality, cannabis was discovered today - and we had the same understanding about the risks associated with it as we do now - would you make it illegal or legal?
An interesting post but to answer your final point, no I would still not make it legal. Just like tobacco would not be legal.
Alcohol I'm not so sure of purely because it is engrained in society to a far greater degree.
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