Open relationships- do they ever really work?! Watch

hslt
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#81
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#81
(Original post by Neil_K)
I did NOT say that. Don't put words into my mouth. Of course monogamy EXISTS, but it isn't our true nature as humans to be monogamous.

Most human beings enter into monogamous relationships because....

1) It's the 'expected norm' that they've been led to believe is the only way to have a relationship, instead of thinking critically about what their TRUE needs are before deciding what sort of relationships are best suited to them

2) They crave security, for example many people marry for financial security, the sharing of resources and/or so they can have a stable environment in which to raise children

3) Sex on tap, rather than having to constantly look for it

4) Emotional connection

Again, PLEASE ANSWER MY QUESTION I PREVIOUSLY POSED (which you are all dodging).....until you answer this question, I cannot give your side of this debate any credibility. I've provided my reasons as to why I believe we're non-monogamous by nature, so it's your turn to provide your reasons for your side of this discussion......

Give me proof that we are monogamous by nature, backed up by intelligent, well reasoned justifications for your points. You've asked me to give proof as to why we are not monogamous by nature (which I have done throughout this thread)....so I ask you the same in return to give me proof that we are monogamous by nature. NOT ONE person here has given any proof or reasons as to why they believe we are monogamous creatures....if nobody here can/will answer this question, then this debate is over....
Well i've looked through all of your posts on the first page and answered all the points again

Why monogamous?
Because my observations see lots of people entering into serially monogamous relationships. Because we clearly, naturally have strong emotional connections to relationships - if it's not part of our nature to have these monogamous relationships why have these feelings? Because we clearly have jealousy over sexual partners - again why have these feelings?

And then because we are poorly biologically adapted to a purely polygamous lifestyle - see my first post for these reasons. I've already offered to expand on them if you don't understand them.

We are also clearly biologically adapted to have connections to our sexual partners. Oxytocin release causes a strong feeling of connection, it's nicknamed the love hormone. Oxytocin release is caused by manipulation of the cervix in women (ie sex), and nipple (i.e. sex/breastfeeding). Similarly sexual activity in males causes oxytocin release. It promotes bonding in mother and child and between sexual partners. These are facts, as far as science can prove anything. This same hormone is responsible for 'pairbonding' in many other animals, by the same/similar mechanisms. Doesn't 100% point towards a monogamous relationship, but is suggestive. This coupled to our poor biological adaptation to pure polygamy, and the trend/want for serial monogamy amoungst most people, suggests that part of our human nature is serial monogamy going back around 0.5-2 million years.

It's not a clear cut case, but there is plenty of evidence either way. Theres no point in pretending that the only possibility is polygamy, because frankly theres too much evidence backing up other possibilities. Likewise theres no point in pretending that theres limitless evidence for monogamy.

Nobody can give your side of the debate any credibility because you're not giving any evidence. You're saying highly subjective things about 'spectacular failure' of monogamy, and the 'norm' being divorce (40% of marriages divorce, common but most survive). The average divorce occurs at 8 years, suggesting if monogamy works it will work for a long time. Different horses, different courses. Humans are complex and you can't apply a single rule to them, especially since we now live in a completely different environment to what we are 'designed' to be in.

You said the idea of being with someone for life is boring. And i'm not suggesting that you're wrong. But being with someone while they care for your genetic offspring is highly intelligent, especially since, while they are pregnant there is crap all they can do to protect themselves. *serial monogamy*. do you understand the term.

And comparing 'lovers' to 'friends' isn't as simple as you initially made out. You are looking to gain different things from them. You choose friends to help you, for interest, for socialising, you choose a mate to most adequately pass on your genes. You are jealous because once you have your 'ideal' mate, you don't want them to be pregnant by someone else, or damaged by someone else, while they are looking after your genes. You have very little to lose by having your friends be friendly elsewhere.

You also keep talking about monogamy being 'created by religion' but you're wrong. Monogamy for life was promoted by religion. Monogamy in many forms has been biologically around for millenia. But I'm not talking about monogamy for life.

Again, stop going on about monogamy as if it locks you in for life. That is not what monogamy necassarily means and it's not what I'm promoting. The fact remains we are poorly adapted to have a completely polygamous lifestyle. As I've explained.

You briefly talk about STIs, of course they've been around as long as sex. not a difficult concept.

You talk about humans as 'animals'. Which of course we are, but animals can be monogamous for life. So I don't see how this is relevant to the debate.

You've been in long-term monogamous relatinoships before and 'in-love'. Well this is the point, was it really society that made you stay true? I know that for me it hasn't been, its the feeling of closeness, of not wanting to hurt them, or for you to be hurt by them. Not wanting to lose your partner, who at the time feels like the 'ideal' mate causes you to be monogamous. You don't want to lose them, because they are your best bet of passing on your genes. Serial monogamy.

You also said:
If I ever meet a girl who I like so much that I have no desire to be with anyone else, and she was to feel the same way about me, then we'd sort of naturally be monogamous
And why would this be? Because it would make sense for a while. You'd be serially monogamous when you find a suitable mate. You're admitting that humans, even ones very cynical about the idea of monogamy, do get attached and have monogamous relationships not because of social pressure, but because it makes sense at the time. Again, serial monogamy. You have desires to be polygamous, but its the want of this particular mate that causes you to be monogamous for a period in time.

And you talk about David X randomly, but you can find anecdotal examples of almost anything. Back to prarie voles, if you knockout their oxytocin receptor they're no longer monogamous. This can happen naturally, doesn't mean that prairie voles aren't a monogamous species.



I agree, people shouldn't act like sheep, and aimlessly fall into pointless polygamy. But theres also a place where it makes sense, socially, emotially, intellectually, biologically, evolutionarily to have a monogamous relationship.
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Frankio
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#82
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#82
(Original post by Neil_K)
I think the title of this thread should be changed to 'Monogamous relationships - do they really work?' or 'Marriage - does it really work?'.

The answer is NO, in both those cases.

As for open relationships, I can say that yes they work far better, since they go with and not against true human nature. See, we humans aren't designed to be monogamous. It's only society that invented to the concept of monogamy to control people....but in our true nature, we are not monogamous beings.
Not true at all, jealousy is a human nature and that is everything to do with monogamy. We aren't 100% monogamous of course but to be honest I don't think there are very many species on the planet that are. However there are species that are mostly monogamous such as some species of birds, and us.

Jealousy is an instinctive emotion and it's hard wired, for the purpose of maintaining monogamy.

EDIT: The person posting above me speaks sense, listen to him/her.
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Neil_K
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#83
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#83
(Original post by Frankio)
Not true at all, jealousy is a human nature and that is everything to do with monogamy.

Jealousy is an instinctive emotion and it's hard wired, for the purpose of maintaining monogamy.
Jealousy is an emotion that insecure, needy and clingy people feel. And you've just pointed out, jealousy is a trait that (usually) occurs within MONOGAMOUS relationships....yet another one of the downsides of being monogamous.

Jealousy is a self-confidence issue!

Jealousy is ones' ego shouting "If your partner HAD THE CHOICE, they wouldn't choose you!". Think about this for a moment.

That is why people opt for the mythical 'happily monogamous relationship' in the first place, believing that by getting into a monogamous relationship with their beloved, they will eliminate competition, and thereby not fear losing their lover to a 'better option'.

I've totally freed myself from jealousy. How did I do this? By giving any girl I meet the choice to leave any time she wants, and do what she wants when she's not with me. This way, I am totally free from jealousy because I'm totally non needy. I don't get possessive, I don't get paranoid about what they're up to when they're not with me, I don't care what guys they meet with or talk to on Facebook, etc.

When you become non-needy and give your partner(s) the freedom to do what they want when they're not with you, and the freedom to leave you at any time, jealousy disappears totally.

Also, when you are busy living your own life and pursuing your goals and dreams, you tend to stop 'caring' about trying to 'cling' onto girls, and as a result you become very non-needy, and non-jealous, which is obviously a good thing!

Most guys in monogamous relationships try too hard to 'cling' onto their girlfriends, and end up jealous and paranoid about what she's up to. These are all unhealthy traits.
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Frankio
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#84
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#84
(Original post by Neil_K)
Jealousy is an emotion that insecure, needy and clingy people feel. And you've just pointed out, jealousy is a trait that (usually) occurs within MONOGAMOUS relationships....yet another one of the downsides of being monogamous.

Jealousy is a self-confidence issue!

Jealousy is ones' ego shouting "If your partner HAD THE CHOICE, they wouldn't choose you!". Think about this for a moment.

That is why people opt for the mythical 'happily monogamous relationship' in the first place, believing that by getting into a monogamous relationship with their beloved, they will eliminate competition, and thereby not fear losing their lover to a 'better option'.

I've totally freed myself from jealousy. How did I do this? By giving any girl I meet the choice to leave any time she wants, and do what she wants when she's not with me. This way, I am totally free from jealousy because I'm totally non needy. I don't get possessive, I don't get paranoid about what they're up to when they're not with me, I don't care what guys they meet with or talk to on Facebook, etc.

When you become non-needy and give your partner(s) the freedom to do what they want when they're not with you, and the freedom to leave you at any time, jealousy disappears totally.

Also, when you are busy living your own life and pursuing your goals and dreams, you tend to stop 'caring' about trying to 'cling' onto girls, and as a result you become very non-needy, and non-jealous, which is obviously a good thing!

Most guys in monogamous relationships try too hard to 'cling' onto their girlfriends, and end up jealous and paranoid about what she's up to. These are all unhealthy traits.
Jealousy and paranoia aren't the same thing, and believe me jealousy certainly isn't a cultural phenomenon or consciously originated thought (even animals experience it). There are many reasons in nature why monogamy works and is employed (mainly to do with offspring), it doesn't for all, but it definately works for some and arguably a majority.
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trooper6
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#85
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#85
Open relationships can work. In those that do the partners place a very high value in their emotional connection with their partner. There must be a very strong trust between the partners and that is usually accompanied by very strong ground rules. At least in the ones I have read about the partners are 100% committed to one another and if the other partner says no to a sexual encounter by their partner, it doesn’t happen. They keep each other at the very top of their priorities.

As to how monogamous we are, the statistics may seen at;

http://www.infidelityfacts.com/infid...tatistics.html

The two most applicable are;
Percentage of men who say they would have an affair if they knew they would never get caught: 74%
Percentage of women who say they would have an affair if they knew they would never get caught: 68%
Obviously the numbers should be higher as many would never admit to something they felt was socially unacceptable.

If you really believe that married women will remain monogamous even when they feel secure that no one would ever know, just spend a month at some tropical island resort and observe the wives and grandmothers in action. It will probably be a shocker to most of you.

With all that said, I believe that most of us are just too insecure to live in that situation.
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CapauPasCap
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#86
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Hi Trooper,

Fair enough points, but i think that says more about our conscience rather than anything else. If you knew you could do something, and the chance of 'Getting away with it' was a certainty, the chances are we would do it.

If we knew we could Swindle the bank out of £100K, and knew we wouldn't get caught and that our conscience wouldn't catch up to us, the chances are, we would do it.
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Sazzle4
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#87
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#87
For me personally an open or non-monogamous relationship would never work. Emotionally, I wouldn't be able to handle it and I would not be happy in one.

However...that's not to say they never work. I have friends who are actually married with children but are still non-monogamous and both sleep with other people of both genders. It isn't conventional and if I'd never known them I doubt I'd believe this could work or be healthy...but it works for them.

I think really the question at the heart of the OP's original post was whether their relationship could work if it was open and none of us can really answer that for them. I would definitely say though that an open relationship only works if it is truly equal and is what both parties want. If either one of them is only doing it to hang onto the other person however tenuously at any cost then I don't think you'll be sucessful. They would always be hurting below the surface and hoping that the arrangement will be a temporary measure.
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