Hey there! Sign in to join this conversationNew here? Join for free

Please help, Muslims will probably only understand Watch

    Offline

    11
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by AishaGirl)
    It is not our job to think of what god does and why. His thinking is above ours.

    The entire point of life is to test you, so start revising.
    Yes, but you believe, do you not, that God has put a seal on my heart and mind so that I don't believe in him?

    So how can the entire point be to test me? What is the point of "revising"? I have already failed the test even before I take it, right?

    Please tell me if I have misunderstood? After all, it is my immortal soul which is going to burnt forever, and it seems a very unpleasant fate.

    I'd much rather spend eternity shagging translucent virgins.
    Offline

    2
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by astutehirstute)
    Yes, but you believe, do you not, that God has put a seal on my heart and mind so that I don't believe in him?

    So how can the entire point be to test me? What is the point of "revising"? I have already failed the test even before I take it, right?

    Please tell me if I have misunderstood? After all, it is my immortal soul which is going to burnt forever, and it seems a very unpleasant fate.
    I do know what Allah swt knows. I do not believe your sealed heart cannot be unsealed if you genuinely search for him. You're misunderstanding, your path is written before hand as in god knows what you will do before you know but your free will is what will determine where you end up.

    You may well one of those that ends up in the hellfire feeling sorry for yourself but that option is not set in stone. I imagine it to be like a mouse in a maze with food and poison. You as the creator of the maze know that the mouse will either find the food or the poison, but which one the mouse decides to eat is solely down to the mouse.

    I'd much rather spend eternity shagging translucent virgins.
    Can you please not quote me with such language...
    Offline

    15
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by QE2)
    I know, on an open debate forum as well! Shocking!

    This is what happens when TSR Muslims refuse to engage in debate within the Religion section. We have to come looking for you.

    Also, it doesn't matter what the OP is about, once people start making the usual ridiculous and unsupportable claims, people are going to challenge them. If people don't want their beliefs challenged, they shouldn't air them on open forums.

    In the words of Homer Simpson...
    "If you're gonna get mad at me every time I do something stupid, I'm gonna have to stop doing stupid things".
    Now you are going to debate about this too lol? It is clear you hate Islam but you need to calm down. You can't force people into debates, that's just seriously immature but good luck.
    Online

    16
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Zamestaneh)
    If someone is shouting to you over and over warning of a fire and then you put your fingers in your ears and close your eyes, then as the fire is closer to you, the one shouting at you gives you ear buds, you only have yourself to blame for getting burnt.
    If the owner of the building insists that you wear ear defenders and a blindfold before you enter the building, you will not be able to hear or see any warning signs.

    And in any event, the person ultimately responsible for me getting burned is the person who started the fire in the first place.
    Offline

    3
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by AishaGirl)
    People convert to Islam every single day. Perhaps you may be one of them? Whether it's tomorrow, next year or when you're laying on your death bed, you never know when your heart will open up.

    Allahu alim.
    And many leave Islam. They are just not as vocal as those who convert.
    Offline

    3
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by h333)
    Now you are going to debate about this too lol? It is clear you hate Islam but you need to calm down. You can't force people into debates, that's just seriously immature but good luck.
    Immaturity comes from those who use childish arguments to justify unsupported beliefs, such as "Allah knows best".
    Offline

    11
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by AishaGirl)
    I do know what Allah swt knows. I do not believe your sealed heart cannot be unsealed if you genuinely search for him. You're misunderstanding, your path is written before hand as in god knows what you will do before you know but your free will is what will determine where you end up.

    You may well one of those that ends up in the hellfire feeling sorry for yourself but that option is not set in stone. I imagine it to be like a mouse in a maze with food and poison. You as the creator of the maze know that the mouse will either find the food or the poison, but which one the mouse decides to eat is solely down to the mouse.
    So God hasn't put a seal on my heart and mind, then?? I find this very confusing. I thought he had.

    Surely if he has willed me to live in paradise, to believe in him and do all the praying, that was his decision for me from the day I was born? I have done nothing to actually deserve it, have I?

    (Original post by AishaGirl)
    Can you please not quote me with such language..
    Oh I am sorry, excuse me.

    Could you explain, in decent language obviously, what the concept of paradise is for the men in your religion, then? (I am a man)

    How does it work exactly? It is worth giving up the odd gin and tonic for?
    Online

    16
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by AishaGirl)
    People convert to Islam every single day. Perhaps you may be one of them? Whether it's tomorrow, next year or when you're laying on your death bed, you never know when your heart will open up.

    Allahu alim.
    As I said, it is possible, but only if it has been decreed by Allah. I have no say in the matter.
    And likewise, you could see the light at any time and apostasise. It would be meaningless to claim that it couldn't happen because you have no idea what Allah has decreed for you in the future.
    In which case, how is it just to punish or reward us for something that we had no control over?
    Offline

    15
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Josb)
    Immaturity comes from those who use childish arguments to justify unsupported beliefs, such as "Allah knows best".
    Yeah we get it, you hate Islam and its followers. No problem, I don't expect any respect. I was thinking about the OP because her thread is just ruined now but fine carry on.
    Offline

    3
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by h333)
    Yeah we get it, you hate Islam and its followers. No problem, I don't expect any respect. I was thinking about the OP because her thread is just ruined now but fine carry on.
    OP doesn't care anymore.

    You accuse me of hating Muslims, but what should I say when Miszshortie said that non-Muslims cannot be righteous?

    Muslims are also very immature when they accuse other people of hating Muslims just because they ask them to justify their beliefs.
    Online

    16
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by AishaGirl)
    I do know what Allah swt knows. I do not believe your sealed heart cannot be unsealed if you genuinely search for him. You're misunderstanding, your path is written before hand as in god knows what you will do before you know but your free will is what will determine where you end up.
    If god knows that outcome A will happen, it is not possible for me to choose outcome B instead. Once Allah used his infallible omniscience to fix a future event (Qadr/Preserved Tablet), that event is inevitable. It must happen. Free will has been removed.

    You may well one of those that ends up in the hellfire feeling sorry for yourself but that option is not set in stone. I imagine it to be like a mouse in a maze with food and poison. You as the creator of the maze know that the mouse will either find the food or the poison, but which one the mouse decides to eat is solely down to the mouse.
    Absolutely not!
    This analogy shows god not knowing the outcome of an event! This fundamentally contradicts the basis of Islam! Allah knows if the mouse will eat the poison or the food. And he knows exactly which route it will take. Your analogy has god merely as an observer.

    Can you please not quote me with such language...
    Ha! I'd forgotten about the Bukhari hadith that describes houri as having transparent skin and bones so that the marrow can be seen!
    What do you think about that? Why do you think that is supposed to sound attaractive?
    Offline

    2
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by QE2)
    Absolutely not!
    This analogy shows god not knowing the outcome of an event! This fundamentally contradicts the basis of Islam! Allah knows if the mouse will eat the poison or the food. And he knows exactly which route it will take. Your analogy has god merely as an observer.
    Read what I said again. Allah swt knows the outcome because he knows what you will pick, but the choice you make is yours, Allah swt does not make you commit sin. If knows if you will or not, but he does not make you.

    Sorry if I didn't explain it well enough, I'm pretty terrible at analogies.
    Online

    16
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by h333)
    Yeah we get it, you hate Islam and its followers. No problem, I don't expect any respect.
    And you hate disbelievers, but you don't see me crying about it. I just challenge you to justify your belief.
    If you can't, fair enough. I've tried to find logical, reasonable and evidential reason for justifying belief in Islam, and I can't - and I'm not burdened by indoctrination and confirmation bias.
    Online

    16
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by AishaGirl)
    Read what I said again. Allah swt knows the outcome because he knows what you will pick, but the choice you make is yours, Allah swt does not make you commit sin. If knows if you will or not, but he does not make you.

    Sorry if I didn't explain it well enough, I'm pretty terrible at analogies.
    The problem here is with the concept of infallible omniscience and predetermination (Qadr).
    Once god has predetermined/decreed/forseen an action, that action must happen. The ability for us to pick any other action has been removed. Now obviously, we are not aware of this, we still have the illusion of free will, but it is impossible for us to pick any other choice than the one god knows we will pick. If we could, it would disprove god's omniscience.

    Example.
    God knows I will order chicken for dinner tonight.
    When I come to place my order, can I choose anything else on the menu?
    I am reading the menu, I like the look of many things. Can I order steak, or fish?
    Of course not. Allah knows I will order chicken, so I cannot order anything else. I have no free will in what I order at the moment of ordering.
    Obviously, no one is physically forcing me to order chicken. I'm not trying to order steak but the words come out as chicken (that would be somewhat disconcerting!). The very intention to order chicken has already been fixed by Allah. I can no more decide to not order chicken that I can decide to stop my hair from growing.
    Offline

    20
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by AishaGirl)
    It is not our job to think of what god does and why. His thinking is above ours.

    The entire point of life is to test you, so start revising.
    Life can't be a test if God knows everything because the very concept of a test depends on not knowing the outcome in advance.

    (Original post by Zamestaneh)
    If someone is shouting to you over and over warning of a fire and then you put your fingers in your ears and close your eyes, then as the fire is closer to you, the one shouting at you gives you ear buds, you only have yourself to blame for getting burnt.
    Well no, because it's Allah who has set the seal on our hearts and minds so it is him who is entirely to blame.
    Offline

    2
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by QE2)
    Example.
    God knows I will order chicken for dinner tonight.
    When I come to place my order, can I choose anything else on the menu?
    I am reading the menu, I like the look of many things. Can I order steak, or fish?
    Of course not. Allah knows I will order chicken, so I cannot order anything else. I have no free will in what I order at the moment of ordering.
    Obviously, no one is physically forcing me to order chicken. I'm not trying to order steak but the words come out as chicken (that would be somewhat disconcerting!). The very intention to order chicken has already been fixed by Allah. I can no more decide to not order chicken that I can decide to stop my hair from growing.
    You can order either, the choice is yours but Allah swt knows what that choice is. He does not force you to pick chicken or steak, he just knows which one you will pick.

    I don't know, sorry.
    Offline

    15
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by QE2)
    And you hate disbelievers, but you don't see me crying about it. I just challenge you to justify your belief.
    If you can't, fair enough. I've tried to find logical, reasonable and evidential reason for justifying belief in Islam, and I can't - and I'm not burdened by indoctrination and confirmation bias.
    I don't hate disbelievers and I am not crying about it either. You was the one that quoted me and accused Muslims of holding ridiculous beliefs. As I said before you can't force someone into a debate and people are not always going to agree with you. Maybe try chasing Muslims in real life more often too and challenge their beliefs, while you're at it get contact with Islamic scholars too and tell them that your interpretations are right as well as challenging them too.

    (Original post by Josb)
    OP doesn't care anymore.

    You accuse me of hating Muslims, but what should I say when Miszshortie said that non-Muslims cannot be righteous?

    Muslims are also very immature when they accuse other people of hating Muslims just because they ask them to justify their beliefs.
    You quoted me so I responded to you. You indirectly called Muslims immature for following Islam but honestly I don't mind because I know there will be people who will hate Islam. Whereas, I never claimed all non-Muslims are immature but specifically that person who quoted me in this case. One does not need to keep chasing Muslims to start debates when they don't want to and lead to this, where it has gone off topic and not even relevant to the thread anymore.

    This is my last say on this as I don't want to start an on going debate here too, I'm sure there is enough already.
    Offline

    18
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Plantagenet Crown)
    Well no, because it's Allah who has set the seal on our hearts and minds so it is him who is entirely to blame.
    Life is a test for us, not for God. The fact God knows the outcome doesn't change the fact that you make manifest your own predermined outcome by virtue of your choices.

    A person rejects guidance before a seal is placed over their hearts, which is why I gave my analogy.
    • Offline

      18
      (Original post by BigTraderBoi)
      Anyone who doesn't believe in all of the Quran and hadiths is not within the fold of Islam.
      There goes the eminently rigorous field of Hadith science. Many scholars will be out of job thanks to you. :sad:
      Online

      16
      ReputationRep:
      (Original post by AishaGirl)
      You can order either, the choice is yours but Allah swt knows what that choice is. He does not force you to pick chicken or steak, he just knows which one you will pick.

      I don't know, sorry.
      So if Allah knows that I will pick chicken, I can still pick steak?
      But that would mean that Allah was wrong!

      The point is, he knows before I choose, which choice I am going to make. He is not merely observing and commenting. Remember that Allah decreed all this and wrote it down 50,000 before creation (sahih Muslim).
      “Do you not know that Allaah knows what is in the heavens and earth? Indeed that is in a book. Indeed that is easy for Allaah.” (Qur’an Chapter al-Hajj, 22: 80)
      “No calamity strikes in the earth or in yourselves except that it is in a book before I bring it into existence.” (Qur’an Chapter al-Hadeed, 57: 22)

      Imagine.
      Allah and Jibril are watching me look at the menu. Jibril says to Allah "what's he going to order?"
      Allah consults his book and says "chicken".
      Am I able to order steak? Obviously not, because if I did, it would contradict Allah's knowledge. The argument that he merely wrote down what he saw me freely choosing in the future is flawed, because by infallibly recording it, it is now fixed at the point when I actually make the choice. Thus no free will.
     
     
     
    TSR Support Team

    We have a brilliant team of more than 60 Support Team members looking after discussions on The Student Room, helping to make it a fun, safe and useful place to hang out.

    Updated: February 4, 2017
  1. See more of what you like on The Student Room

    You can personalise what you see on TSR. Tell us a little about yourself to get started.

  2. Poll
    What newspaper do you read/prefer?
  3. See more of what you like on The Student Room

    You can personalise what you see on TSR. Tell us a little about yourself to get started.

  4. The Student Room, Get Revising and Marked by Teachers are trading names of The Student Room Group Ltd.

    Register Number: 04666380 (England and Wales), VAT No. 806 8067 22 Registered Office: International House, Queens Road, Brighton, BN1 3XE

    Quick reply
    Reputation gems: You get these gems as you gain rep from other members for making good contributions and giving helpful advice.