Who's had the vaccination?

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pipershannon02
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(Original post by PilgrimOfTruth)
That being the case you obviously now have natural immunity going forward. If the virus comes your way again your body will recognise it and deal with it. I can't fathom therefore why you say that you can't understand why people refuse the vaccines. If you have natural immunity then why on earth would you need/want the vaccines?

Don't you realise that whichever route you take it is your immune system, the same immune system that is mounting the response?

Have you been bamboozled by the media nonsense?
There’s no way to guarantee I will be immune to the virus going forward, if it mutates for example. I also know someone who’s had it 3 times and many people who’ve had it twice. I agree the media is nonsense and stuff but with my personal experience with the virus no one, not even doctors know what it is and how to deal with it
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Alice863
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I'm so glad I'm not going crazy ha ha. Got the astrazeneca vaccine yesterday and I hardly slept. Then when I finally did, I woke up a couple of hours later at 4am shivering so violently. Been in bed all day and now I have a temperature.

(Original post by RainbowLad_)
How did you feel after a few hours? I had it done yesterday, and my God, I feel awful. I have recently awoken from the worst sleep of my life. I was too cold, so I put the heating on, then I was too hot. I feel a heavy, painful and numbing feeling in the affected arm. I am not looking forward to the next one.
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username5604436
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(Original post by Alice863)
I'm so glad I'm not going crazy ha ha. Got the astrazeneca vaccine yesterday and I hardly slept. Then when I finally did, I woke up a couple of hours later at 4am shivering so violently. Been in bed all day and now I have a temperature.
I wouldn’t recommend the AZ vaccine. It’s not been approved in many countries and for good reason. The uk government will not admit it since they are liable for any complications due to the emergency authorisation
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yeetouttawindow
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(Original post by PilgrimOfTruth)
(Original post by ER141)
1. Even if you have mild/no symptoms you can still get long covid. So young people who have no symptoms could still develop heart problems in the future, for example

This is nothing but very lame "Project Fear" narrative.. Where are your facts and figures? You can also get struck by lightning and/or run over by a bus or have a car accident. What matters then is how likely you are to first get Covid at all and then to get "Long Covid". The answer is of course that you are extremely unlikely to get Long Covid. Some do get it, but they are a minority same with the number of people who die from Covid.
All you are doing here is trying to scaremonger and using that as some kind of argument for getting vaxed. It's poor strategy for such a debate.

It also needs to be understood that the "Long Covid" narrative is divisive. Most illnesses and conditions see people suffer long term issues. This includes Flu and Pneumonia and Whooping Cough and tons of other illnesses. But we haven't inventeded silly meme terms for "Long Flu" and "Long Pneumonia". It's just part of the whole scaremongering PR campaign. Is "Long Covid" any more prevalent than "Long Flu"? Do you have any facts and figures? Or are you just peddling fear?


(Original post by ER141)
2. The side effects experienced after the vaccine are not a disease, they are your immune system reacting to the vaccine. Not everyone has side effects, and that doesn't mean the vaccine isn't working, but if you have side effects like fever, aches, chills, then that is just your immune system. It feels horrible, but your life isn't in danger like it is when you have actual covid, because your body is under attack from real covid, not the vaccine.

Not sure why you raise this because I never disputed it. However it's a fact that a minority of people suffer much worse side effects from all vaccines and some of them are life changing such as the many cases of Narcolepsy seen with the previously rushed out Swine Flu vaccines and things like Guillian Barre Syndrome. No vaccine is 100% free from such impacts. It's a gamble. For the vulnerable that gamble makes sense due to their risks of getting serious Covid illness. For others I'd suggest the gamble isn't necessary to take.


(Original post by ER141)
3. Anyone can die from covid. Yes, it is more likely if you are old or vulnerable, but children with no comorbidities have also died. Even if it was only one group that died, why would you not want to help prevent that? Which brings me on to my next point:

Again you're peddling "Project Fear" to make an argument. It doesn't wash. How many people have actually died specifically because of Covid in the young demographics? Answer = extremely few indeed. In fact the total number of so-called "Covid Deaths" in the UK is some 146,000 which is just 0.2% of the population and the vast majority of those have been older people with multiple underlying health conditions. Sure, there ARE some young people that have actually died, but the number is ridiculously tiny to the extent that it is dwarfed by the number of young people who die in car accidents or any number of other causes.


(Original post by ER141)
4. Herd immunity. Lots of vulnerable people can't have the vaccine because their condition prevents it. Only by having the rest of the population vaccinated and thereby reducing transmission will these people be protected. And like you say, you can still get the virus if you have had the vaccine, though it is MUCH less likely, and having everyone vaccinated will reduce the spread and make it much safer.

This is a classic failed argument of pro-vaxxers. The refutation of it is extremely simple. The demographic you refer to, people who are immune-compromised and thus cannot have the vaccine, are a tiny minority of the total population. The notion of vaccinating the entire world just to try and save that tiny demographic is both flawed, inherently wrong and morally unacceptable. That's because in vaccinating millions or billions of people you WILL harm a certain percentage of those people from serious side effects of the vaccines. It's natural accepted collateral damage. Some people will get Guillian Barre Syndrome, some may get narcolepsy, some will die. Hence you will end up harming far more people than you actually try to save in that tiny immune-compromised demographic. Your point is an old one that just does not stand up to any scrutiny.


(Original post by ER141)
5. Of course we still have to wear masks. It is protecting OTHER people. Yeah, if you've had the vaccine you may get asymptomatic covid rather than full blown covid, but you may still be able to transmit it to others. Until the majority of the population has had the vaccine, we cannot completely ease the pandemic restrictions. So if you want to be able to take of your mask eventually, then have the vaccine and encourage others to do so. And in terms of still having to be swabbed, you will have to do that whether or not you have had the vaccine, but you are more likely to be prevented from doing things because you are more likely to get covid if you haven't been vaccinated. And international travel will require you to show that you have been vaccinated. And the swabs take less than 2 minutes and aren't that bad, hardly an inconvenience.

Another totally flawed argument. You are suggesting effectively that herd immunity can only be achieved via vaccination which is patently wrong, scientifically wrong, historically wrong and not remotely supported by virology. Natural immunity gained from having had Covid is as strong if not stronger than vaccine-derived immunity and longer lasting. This has been discussed here:

https://www.thestudentroom.co.uk/sho....php?t=6978889

Herd immunity will therefore be achieved by the combination of those with natural immunity and those with vaccine-derived immunity. The pro-vax brigade simply want to try to ignore the former, want to bury it under the carpet or worse still try to disparage the enormous benefits of natural immunity. I find such traits disgusting and wholly out of accordance with science and no-one should be entertaining them. The restrictions we are all currently being subjected to (which themselves are wholly wrong) should be lifted when the vulnerable have all been vaccinated or have natural immunity. That's because they are the primary risk demographics, the groups in which the VAST MAJORITY of serious Covid illness and deaths occur. There is no benefit to society in locking down people who:

- are already naturally immune to Covid
- are tested and shown to be Covid negative
- are not remotely at risk of developing serious Covid illness

As for the swab tests again you make wholly glib statements. Most recently it has been revealed that test swabs have been sterilised using Ethylene Oxide which is a highly toxic substance, DNA altering and cancer causing. Getting swab tested is not something I am personally going to subject myself to. For that and other reasons, not least because the tests themselves are wholly unfit for purpose and produce ridiculously high levels of false positive and false negative results. As you state, the elitist global technocrats seeking to take over the world are going to try and cajole people into taking vaccines through attrition and removal of privileges like traveling by air or sea. Their desire and need to engage in such Orwellian behaviours for me speaks volumes about there being much more to these vaccines than Covid. Regardless I am quite happy to forego air and ship travel for the sake of preserving my health and/or life. Everyone needs to make their own decisions because one thing is VERY certain once you put whatever is in the vaccines in your body, there is no taking it out again.


(Original post by ER141)
6. The vaccine is safe. It has been tested in the same way that any other vaccine would be, just over a shorter time scale. This means trials going on in tandem rather than one after the other, so the length of the trials themselves were still sufficient.

Sorry but no that's a complete lie. Totally false. The vaccines have only been tested for short term safety. Long term safety testing has not yet been done and will be part of future testing as will other areas of testing. Other vaccines take years to complete development and testing, Covid vaccines have not been through that entire process. Here are the FACTS from Pfizer themselves:

https://www.nejm.org/doi/10.1056/NEJMoa2034577

It states:

"Assessment of long-term safety and efficacy for this vaccine will occur, but it cannot be in the context of maintaining a placebo group for the planned follow-up period of 2 years after the second dose. These data do not address whether vaccination prevents asymptomatic infection; a serologic end point that can detect a history of infection regardless of whether symptoms were present (SARS-CoV-2 N-binding antibody) will be reported later. Furthermore, given the high vaccine efficacy and the low number of vaccine breakthrough cases, potential establishment of a correlate of protection has not been feasible at the time of this report."

"This report does not address the prevention of Covid-19 in other populations, such as younger adolescents, children, and pregnant women"

"Safety and immune response data from this trial after immunization of adolescents 12 to 15 years of age will be reported subsequently, and additional studies are planned to evaluate BNT162b2 in pregnant women, children younger than 12 years, and those in special risk groups, such as immunocompromised persons"

As can be seen a whole raft of testing areas HAVE NOT yet been completed and thus your statement about the vaccines having gone through all the normal checks is completely wrong. Don't worry though. lot's of people like yourself have not bothered to do the actual research and have simply swallowed the spoon-fed narratives peddled by pro-vax groups. Hopefully I have helped to make you better informed now.


(Original post by ER141)
"The emergency use authorisation is partly to allow everyone to get the vaccine, because they don't want to give people unnecessary drugs, but this one IS necessary. And in terms of long term effects, the vaccine is transient, it will be broken down by your body pretty soon after you develop immunity, the only thing that will remain is the antibodies."

The EUA is given because we are in a pandemic situation with a minority of people dying but who need the option of taking the lesser of two evils. That is to say that the "at risk" vulnerable people are in the unenviable situation of having to choose between a virus that might kill them and a vaccine that is not fully tested for safety. The EUA gives them the freedom to make that unenviable choice between those evils. Were we not in a pandemic situation these vaccines would NOT gain authorisation simple as. The rest of your statement there is just Pharma spiel. Pharma have a history of telling the public that their vaccines and medicines are safe when they in fact turn out not to be. Some examples:

The "Cutter Incident" Polio
https://devastatingdisasters.com/the...incident-1955/


Swine Flu Vaccine Victims

These NHS Staff Were Told The Swine Flu Vaccine Was Safe, And Now They're Suffering The Consequences

https://www.buzzfeed.com/shaunlinter...ccine-was-safe

Brain-Damaged UK Victims of Swine Flu Vaccine to Get £60 Million Compensation
https://www.ibtimes.co.uk/brain-damaged-uk-victims-swine-flu-vaccine-get-60-million-compensation-1438572


(Original post by ER141)
7. "only" 90% effective?! That's amazing coverage! Almost no vaccines are that effective! And then you say that covid reduces re-infection by 91%. So... the same number as the vaccine? And some of the vaccines are 95% effective.

You've gotten confused here. It is "Natural Immunity" that reduces re-infection by 91%

I agree that 90% efficacy is great for a vaccine but at the same time I am researched enough to know that:

1. What happens in vaccine trials is not the same as happens in real life scenarios
2. Pharma have a horrible history of fraud and falsifying trial data
3. The 90% efficacy rates are based on a ridiculously low number of Covid cases in the trials

Again you probably haven't bothered to do the research here and have just swallowed the media sensationalist figure of 90%

Both the Pfizer and Moderna vaccine trials, despite using around 44,000 trial volunteers, only saw around 200 actual cases of Covid. See here:

https://www.pfizer.com/news/press-re...vid-19-vaccine

In the case of Pfizer trial there were only 170 cases of Covid, 162 were in the placebo group, 8 were in the vaccinated group.
Whilst that result suggests a 90% effectiveness rate it is nevertheless based only on a tiny handful of just 170 cases, yet we have embarked on the roll-out of the vaccine to millions of people. I remain personally unconvinced of that efficacy and am not impressed at all about that tiny sample size used to create this 90% effectiveness figure. Each to their own.

The Moderna vaccine trial was no different. It only saw 185 cases of Covid in the placebo group and 11 among the vaccinated group. These are tiny sample sizes to be drawing such life impacting conclusions from for vaccinating millions of people. Again source here:

https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa2035389


(Original post by ER141)
8. We don't know how long immunity acquired through contact with the actual virus will last. The reason we need yearly flu vaccines is because it mutates so quickly. Covid already has several strains, and we don't know whether 'natural' immunity will protect against them, just as we aren't certain if the vaccines will. Having so many hosts may enable the virus to mutate quicker than other coronaviruses. Also the common cold can be caused by a coronavirus. Anyone here immune to common colds? No, because they mutate so quickly.

Again this is just Pharma mantra to support the pro-vax position. Natural immunity is good. Very good as proven by the numerous studies which are discussed in the link to the thread I provided earlier. It's also a fact that 20% to 50% of the population already had levels of immunity to Covid before Covid even came along. It was immunity gained from past bouts of colds, Flu and ILIs years before the advent of Covid, demonstrating admirably how important, strong and long lasting natural immunity is. Your attempts to ignore or play down natural immunity are extremely poor and disappointing TBH. Studies reveal all of this:

Covid-19: Do many people have pre-existing immunity?
https://www.bmj.com/content/370/bmj.m3563

Targets of T Cell Responses to SARS-CoV-2 Coronavirus in Humans with COVID-19 Disease and Unexposed Individuals
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/32473127/

Pre-existing and de novo humoral immunity to SARS-CoV-2 in humans
https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1...e2=tf_ipsecsha

Phenotype of SARS-CoV-2-specific T-cells in COVID-19 patients with acute respiratory distress syndrome
https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1...e2=tf_ipsecsha

SARS-CoV-2-specific T cell immunity in cases of COVID-19 and SARS, and uninfected controls
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/32668444/

Pre-existing immunity to SARS-CoV-2: the knowns and unknowns
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/32636479/

Past Colds and Flu provide T-Cell Immunity
https://www.nih.gov/news-events/nih-...ize-sars-cov-2


What you are doing here is trying to rob me and others of our innate natural immunity inheritance. This is the wonder and strength of a healthy human body. To be able to get infected with viruses, to mount good immune responses to them and to thereby learn how to recognise and deal with them in the future. Natural immunity creates important T-Cell and B-Cell immunity rather than just antibodies. Natural immunity to Covid is good, strong and lasting. It is appreciated that those "at risk" and vulnerable don't have the luxury of getting natural immunity and thus should take the vaccination route. Those who have now already recovered from Covid imho don't need to get vaccinated and it must always be a free choice.


(Original post by ER141)
9. "wE aLl KnOw ThAt mAnY oF tHoSe DeAtHs WeRe NoT cAuSeD bY cOvId." No. Yes, some of these people died from other things, but often those other things shouldn't have killed them (at least yet), but it did because they also had covid. Covid played a role in all of those deaths. It doesn't count if you have covid and then got shot in the head, those numbers aren't included. Most of those deaths would not have happened if covid wasn't around.

You're completely wrong. The definition of a "Covid Death" is any death that occurred where the deceased had been positive for Covid up to 28 days before death. There has also been a lot of double counting not least because the "unfit for purpose" PCR test kits pick up the same virus up to 90 days after first infection. So if I test you today and you are positive I can test you 90 days later and the test will still show you as positive when in fact you are not at all contagious. Because of this health workers are not tested more frequently than this. This is not up for discussion as it has been legally ruled, see below:

Landmark legal ruling finds that Covid tests are not fit for purpose
https://www.rt.com/op-ed/507937-covid-pcr-test-fail/

also here:

WHO Finally Admits COVID19 PCR Test Has a ‘Problem’
https://principia-scientific.com/who...has-a-problem/

and here's the UK Government statement on usage of the PCR Tests

https://www.gov.uk/government/public...pital-settings

"Immunocompetent staff, patients and residents who have tested positive for SARS-CoV-2 by PCR should be exempt from routine re-testing by PCR or LFD antigen tests (for example, repeated whole setting screening or screening prior to hospital discharge) within a period of 90 days from their initial illness onset or test (if asymptomatic) unless they develop new COVID-19 symptoms. This is because fragments of inactive virus can be persistently detected by PCR in respiratory tract samples following infection – long after a person has completed their isolation period and is no longer infectious."


(Original post by ER141)
10. What the hell is a vaccine junkie. That's not real. You cannot become addicted to vaccines, it's impossible, that's not how it works. Yes, people have vaccines every year, because they are GOOD FOR YOU and help society. I don't call people vegetable junkies if they eat their 5 a day. You can stop having the vaccine at any point, nobody can force you, though it is highly advisable that you have them.

Happy for you if you believe getting repeatedly vaccinated year on year is "good for you". By all means go and get the shots. I believe differently and science shows me that I have good cause to be cautious. Up until a few years ago Pharma were putting Thimerosal (50% Mercury) in vaccines until the public became fully aware and they abolished it. Science also now recognises that getting repeated flu shots lessens the effects of vaccines and leaves you vulnerable. Here's the science if you are interested in educating yourself:

The Oxford Academic - Journal Of Infectious Diseases
https://academic.oup.com/jid/article/222/2/173/5554481

"there is accumulating evidence suggesting that repeat seasonal vaccination may, in specific instances,result in reduced antibody responses and diminished vaccine effectiveness. The so-called “Canadian Problem” was one of the most notorious recent examples of a possible increase
in risk of infection associated with prior vaccination. Skowronski et al reported that individuals who had been vaccinated in the 2008–2009 season, before the emergence of the 2009 swine flu pandemic, experienced higher rates of infection with the pandemic strain than individuals who were not vaccinated in the preceding year"

Repeated flu shots may blunt effectiveness
https://www.cmaj.ca/content/187/6/E180.long

Study adds more data on effects of consecutive-year flu shots
https://www.cidrap.umn.edu/news-pers...year-flu-shots


(Original post by ER141)
11. There is no evidence that natural immunity lasts longer than immunity due to the vaccine. Covid has been around less than a year. We just don't know how long immunity for either of these will last, but probably if you get covid, you can probably get it again in the future as the virus mutates. See point 8.

Again just wrong. You have again not done the research. Natural immunity is discussed in the thread link I gave above. Go read it. SARS-COV-2 is a member of the Coronavirus family of which there are many viruses. Past studies of other SARS viruses have shown that natural immunity gained lasts many years. Just read the links in the thread. There is every indication that natural immunity is strong and long lasting. There is as yet, no such indication that vaccine-derived immunity will be any where near as lasting and in fact the NHS is already planning to give people booster shots in Autumn and then on a yearly basis after that. That suggests vaccine-derived immunity is very short lived . . . or that they just want to create a very lucrative multi-billion dollar vaccine business for Covid going forward. Take your pick.


(Original post by ER141)
To conclude, vaccines are safe, we need higher levels of vaccination for herd immunity, anybody of any age and health can die of covid, and long covid is real and dangerous. I had more points in my original response to this poster but that was on the app and it didn't post for some reason.

More Project Fear waffle.

The vaccines are proven to be safe in the short term only. Long term testing and impacts HAVE NOT yet been assessed. It is what it is. A risk. A gamble. Herd immunity will be achieved by the combination of BOTH natural and vaccine-derived immunity. You could achieve herd immunity solely through natural immunity but the mortality would be unacceptable and that's why the most vulnerable need to get vaccinated. Anybody can die of Covid yes, and equally anybody can die of a lightning strike or being run over by a bus. Making glib scaremongering statements as you do helps none of us. What matters are the real life statistics relating to Covid mortality in different demographics. The young are extremely unlikely to develop serious Covid illness let alone die from it. That's a fact They have more chance of dying from a car accident than from Covid. By your scaremongering nonsense they should all sell their cars and never drive again !


It is not my intention in this reply to be antagonistic or disparaging but the fact is that 99% of your points are false and completely un-researched and little more than parroting the party line mantras. The facts matter. Without the facts we can not make informed decisions.

You haven't read the vaccine trial data, you haven't read the plethora of studies relating to natural immunity, to vaccine side effects and the like.

Yet here you are trying to sway hearts and minds on a forum without that essential reading and background.

Not good.
can't you take you mass debate to another thread the point was discuss experiences with the vax
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pipershannon02
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(Original post by Alice863)
I'm so glad I'm not going crazy ha ha. Got the astrazeneca vaccine yesterday and I hardly slept. Then when I finally did, I woke up a couple of hours later at 4am shivering so violently. Been in bed all day and now I have a temperature.
Yeah that’s a normal reaction, it means the vaccine is working and that’s your immune systems reaction to it
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yeetouttawindow
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few hours later arm hurt like hell and did so for about 4 days
i got it it my dominant arm also for some reason - so i could barely function
the next day i had flu like symptoms and barely slept the night fell asleep at like 7am - cold and hot, heart pounding.
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PilgrimOfTruth
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(Original post by pipershannon02)

There’s no way to guarantee I will be immune to the virus going forward, if it mutates for example.

Nope and the same is true of being vaccinated so that point is entirely moot. That said I would prefer to have natural immunity over vaccine-derived immunity every day of the week and twice on Sundays !

Did you know that 20%-50% of the population had levels of immunity against Covid before it even started circulating? Immunity gained from past bouts of colds, Flu and ILIs which was gained as far back as 2018 and beyond. Clear that natural immunity is extremely powerful.


(Original post by pipershannon02)
"I also know someone who’s had it 3 times and many people who’ve had it twice."

So what? Haven't you had repeated colds, or Flu or ILIs most of your life? We've never worried about that. We know that once you've had such viruses the subsequent re-infections are in the vast majority not a problem. Your body remembers, recognises the viruses and deals with them.

Plus it has been studied and proven that :

Natural Immunity To Covid Reduces Re-infection by 91%
https://www.thestudentroom.co.uk/sho....php?t=6978889


So what does it matter if people get reinfections of Covid? I have yet to see a single study that suggests that repeated infections result in any kind of serious Covid illness. The narrative of repeated infections is just media scaremongering that has been prevalent all through 2020. They cite disparate anecdotal cases of people getting reinfected to frighten the masses. That's not science, that's blatant propaganda. It's divisive and wrong. Show me any study that shows that any ind of significant numbers of people see serious Covid illness upon 2nd and subsequent infections.

I had Covid early 2020. I fully expect that I will have been exposed to it later in 2020 and will be exposed to it numerous times in the future. I'm not remotely concerned about that any more than I am concerned about getting a cold. My body will remember, will respond and mount an immune response because my natural immunity means I have the important T-cells and B-cells as well as immunity gained from past colds and ILIs.

It's time for us all to stop this silly scaremongering and treat Covid for what it really is.
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yeetouttawindow
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(Original post by PilgrimOfTruth)
(Original post by pipershannon02)

There’s no way to guarantee I will be immune to the virus going forward, if it mutates for example.

Nope and the same is true of being vaccinated so that point is entirely moot. That said I would prefer to have natural immunity over vaccine-derived immunity every day of the week and twice on Sundays !

Did you know that 20%-50% of the population had levels of immunity against Covid before it even started circulating? Immunity gained from past bouts of colds, Flu and ILIs which was gained as far back as 2018 and beyond. Clear that natural immunity is extremely powerful.


(Original post by pipershannon02)
"I also know someone who’s had it 3 times and many people who’ve had it twice."

So what? Haven't you had repeated colds, or Flu or ILIs most of your life? We've never worried about that. We know that once you've had such viruses the subsequent re-infections are in the vast majority not a problem. Your body remembers, recognises the viruses and deals with them.
So what does it matter if people get reinfections of Covid? I have yet to see a single study that suggests that repeated infections result in any kind of serious Covid illness. The narrative of repeated infections is just media scaremongering that has been prevalent all through 2020. They cite disparate anecdotal cases of people getting reinfected to frighten the masses. That's not science, that's blatant propaganda.

I had Covid early 2020. I fully expect that I will have been exposed to it later in 2020 and will be exposed to it numerous times in the future. I'm not remotely concerned about that any more than I am concerned about getting a cold. My body will remember, will respond and mount an immune response because my natural immunity means I have the important T-cells and B-cells as well as immunity gained from past colds and ILIs.

It's time for us all to stop this silly scaremongering and treat Covid for what it really is.
then don't get it then simple
no need to come on here and start rage [email protected]
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Ayo.f1
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(Original post by ER141)
1. Even if you have mild/no symptoms you can still get long covid. So young people who have no symptoms could still develop heart problems in the future, for example.

2. The side effects experienced after the vaccine are not a disease, they are your immune system reacting to the vaccine. Not everyone has side effects, and that doesn't mean the vaccine isn't working, but if you have side effects like fever, aches, chills, then that is just your immune system. It feels horrible, but your life isn't in danger like it is when you have actual covid, because your body is under attack from real covid, not the vaccine.

3. Anyone can die from covid. Yes, it is more likely if you are old or vulnerable, but children with no comorbidities have also died. Even if it was only one group that died, why would you not want to help prevent that? Which brings me on to my next point:

4. Herd immunity. Lots of vulnerable people can't have the vaccine because their condition prevents it. Only by having the rest of the population vaccinated and thereby reducing transmission will these people be protected. And like you say, you can still get the virus if you have had the vaccine, though it is MUCH less likely, and having everyone vaccinated will reduce the spread and make it much safer.

5. Of course we still have to wear masks. It is protecting OTHER people. Yeah, if you've had the vaccine you may get asymptomatic covid rather than full blown covid, but you may still be able to transmit it to others. Until the majority of the population has had the vaccine, we cannot completely ease the pandemic restrictions. So if you want to be able to take of your mask eventually, then have the vaccine and encourage others to do so. And in terms of still having to be swabbed, you will have to do that whether or not you have had the vaccine, but you are more likely to be prevented from doing things because you are more likely to get covid if you haven't been vaccinated. And international travel will require you to show that you have been vaccinated. And the swabs take less than 2 minutes and aren't that bad, hardly an inconvenience.

6. The vaccine is safe. It has been tested in the same way that any other vaccine would be, just over a shorter time scale. This means trials going on in tandem rather than one after the other, so the length of the trials themselves were still sufficient. The emergency use authorisation is partly to allow everyone to get the vaccine, because they don't want to give people unnecessary drugs, but this one IS necessary. And in terms of long term effects, the vaccine is transient, it will be broken down by your body pretty soon after you develop immunity, the only thing that will remain is the antibodies. If you want to talk about long term effects, look at the long term effects of covid (even in asymptomatic people).

7. "only" 90% effective?! That's amazing coverage! Almost no vaccines are that effective! And then you say that covid reduces re-infection by 91%. So... the same number as the vaccine? And some of the vaccines are 95% effective.

8. We don't know how long immunity acquired through contact with the actual virus will last. The reason we need yearly flu vaccines is because it mutates so quickly. Covid already has several strains, and we don't know whether 'natural' immunity will protect against them, just as we aren't certain if the vaccines will. Having so many hosts may enable the virus to mutate quicker than other coronaviruses. Also the common cold can be caused by a coronavirus. Anyone here immune to common colds? No, because they mutate so quickly.

9. "wE aLl KnOw ThAt mAnY oF tHoSe DeAtHs WeRe NoT cAuSeD bY cOvId." No. Yes, some of these people died from other things, but often those other things shouldn't have killed them (at least yet), but it did because they also had covid. Covid played a role in all of those deaths. It doesn't count if you have covid and then got shot in the head, those numbers aren't included. Most of those deaths would not have happened if covid wasn't around.

10. What the hell is a vaccine junkie. That's not real. You cannot become addicted to vaccines, it's impossible, that's not how it works. Yes, people have vaccines every year, because they are GOOD FOR YOU and help society. I don't call people vegetable junkies if they eat their 5 a day. You can stop having the vaccine at any point, nobody can force you, though it is highly advisable that you have them. You may not be able to do certain things without having had the vaccine, like travel, but as long as you're happy with that and don't mind putting yourself and others at risk then go for it, at the end of the day it's your choice.

11. There is no evidence that natural immunity lasts longer than immunity due to the vaccine. Covid has been around less than a year. We just don't know how long immunity for either of these will last, but probably if you get covid, you can probably get it again in the future as the virus mutates. See point 8.

To conclude, vaccines are safe, we need higher levels of vaccination for herd immunity, anybody of any age and health can die of covid, and long covid is real and dangerous. I had more points in my original response to this poster but that was on the app and it didn't post for some reason.

If anyone is interested, my undergraduate was in biology, my masters was also biology related, and I currently work in a patient facing role looking after elderly people in an acute NHS hospital. I am due to have my second vaccine in April and I am looking forward to it. Side effects will suck but they are only a few days and the benefits massively outweigh the risks.

Stay safe everyone
Well put!
Sorry you had to type that twice and thanks for taking the time to point out the absurd the previous posters claims were and more importantly, sharing accurate science rather just flexing science muscle like some.
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PilgrimOfTruth
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(Original post by Ayo.f1)
Well put!
Sorry you had to type that twice and thanks for taking the time to point out the absurd the previous posters claims were and more importantly, sharing accurate science rather just flexing science muscle like some.
lol, he didn't share any science and in fact displayed a complete lack of knowledge of the science and facts. Not a single study cited in the post and just a whole list of untrue assertions.
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Alice863
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(Original post by Iasona)
I wouldn’t recommend the AZ vaccine. It’s not been approved in many countries and for good reason. The uk government will not admit it since they are liable for any complications due to the emergency authorisation
I would disagree. I trust the bodies that have approved of the vaccine. The side effects, although somewhat unpleasant, are worth the protection against the virus. I am not a vaccine skeptic and I'm very happy to have received one so early on.
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Alice863
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(Original post by pipershannon02)
Yeah that’s a normal reaction, it means the vaccine is working and that’s your immune systems reaction to it
I know- just sharing my experience!
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jademowry123
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w

(Original post by RainbowLad_)
How did you feel after a few hours? I had it done yesterday, and my God, I feel awful. I have recently awoken from the worst sleep of my life. I was too cold, so I put the heating on, then I was too hot. I feel a heavy, painful and numbing feeling in the affected arm. I am not looking forward to the next one.
which one did you get
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PilgrimOfTruth
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(Original post by Alice863)
I would disagree. I trust the bodies that have approved of the vaccine. The side effects, although somewhat unpleasant, are worth the protection against the virus. I am not a vaccine skeptic and I'm very happy to have received one so early on.
The same bodies that approved Swine Flu vaccines that harmed many NHS staff and which was withdrawn from Europe

The same bodies that approved Thalidomide?

The NHS workers whose lives have been totally ruined from side effects of the Swine Flu vaccines would not agree with you that suffering such is worth the protection against a virus that is not much of a risk to young people and which 80% of cases have no symptoms.

These NHS Staff Were Told The Swine Flu Vaccine Was Safe, And Now They're Suffering The Consequences
https://www.buzzfeed.com/shaunlinter...ccine-was-safe

Brain-Damaged UK Victims of Swine Flu Vaccine to Get £60 Million Compensation
https://www.ibtimes.co.uk/brain-dama...sation-1438572


Even the CDC eventually fessed up in relation to the vaccines that had previously been authorised and deemed safe

"An increased risk of narcolepsy was found following vaccination with Pandemrix, a monovalent 2009 H1N1 influenza vaccine that was used in several European countries during the H1N1 influenza pandemic. This risk was initially found in Finland, and then other European countries also detected an association"

https://www.cdc.gov/vaccinesafety/co...lepsy-flu.html


Pandemrix has now been withdrawn from use in the European Union
https://www.ema.europa.eu/en/medicin...EPAR/pandemrix
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username5604436
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(Original post by Alice863)
I would disagree. I trust the bodies that have approved of the vaccine. The side effects, although somewhat unpleasant, are worth the protection against the virus. I am not a vaccine skeptic and I'm very happy to have received one so early
I personally have no faith in the UK government. I also do not trust them with this vaccine; as I stated above, they are 100% liable for any defects and debilitating side effects due to a clause in the emergency approval legislation. They won’t be honest and they haven’t been honest right from the start of this pandemic.
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jademowry123
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(Original post by Iasona)
I personally have no faith in the UK government. I also do not trust them with this vaccine; as I stated above, they are 100% liable for any defects and debilitating side effects due to a clause in the emergency approval legislation. They won’t be honest and they haven’t been honest right from the start of this pandemic.
if anyone had the astragenica vaccine there has been reports of blood clots
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Alice863
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(Original post by PilgrimOfTruth)
The same bodies that approved Swine Flu vaccines that harmed many NHS staff and which was withdrawn from Europe

The same bodies that approved Thalidomide?

The NHS workers whose lives have been totally ruined from side effects of the Swine Flu vaccines would not agree with you that suffering such is worth the protection against a virus that is not much of a risk to young people and which 80% of cases have no symptoms.

These NHS Staff Were Told The Swine Flu Vaccine Was Safe, And Now They're Suffering The Consequences
https://www.buzzfeed.com/shaunlinter...ccine-was-safe

Brain-Damaged UK Victims of Swine Flu Vaccine to Get £60 Million Compensation
https://www.ibtimes.co.uk/brain-dama...sation-1438572


Even the CDC eventually fessed up in relation to the vaccines that had previously been authorised and deemed safe

"An increased risk of narcolepsy was found following vaccination with Pandemrix, a monovalent 2009 H1N1 influenza vaccine that was used in several European countries during the H1N1 influenza pandemic. This risk was initially found in Finland, and then other European countries also detected an association"

https://www.cdc.gov/vaccinesafety/co...lepsy-flu.html


Pandemrix has now been withdrawn from use in the European Union
https://www.ema.europa.eu/en/medicin...EPAR/pandemrix
I would rather not engage with anti-vaxxers
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ER141
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(Original post by PilgrimOfTruth)
1. Even if you have mild/no symptoms you can still get long covid. So young people who have no symptoms could still develop heart problems in the future, for example

This is nothing but very lame "Project Fear" narrative.. Where are your facts and figures? You can also get struck by lightning and/or run over by a bus or have a car accident. What matters then is how likely you are to first get Covid at all and then to get "Long Covid". The answer is of course that you are extremely unlikely to get Long Covid. Some do get it, but they are a minority same with the number of people who die from Covid.
All you are doing here is trying to scaremonger and using that as some kind of argument for getting vaxed. It's poor strategy for such a debate.

It also needs to be understood that the "Long Covid" narrative is divisive. Most illnesses and conditions see people suffer long term issues. This includes Flu and Pneumonia and Whooping Cough and tons of other illnesses. But we haven't inventeded silly meme terms for "Long Flu" and "Long Pneumonia". It's just part of the whole scaremongering PR campaign. Is "Long Covid" any more prevalent than "Long Flu"? Do you have any facts and figures? Or are you just peddling fear?


(Original post by ER141)
2. The side effects experienced after the vaccine are not a disease, they are your immune system reacting to the vaccine. Not everyone has side effects, and that doesn't mean the vaccine isn't working, but if you have side effects like fever, aches, chills, then that is just your immune system. It feels horrible, but your life isn't in danger like it is when you have actual covid, because your body is under attack from real covid, not the vaccine.

Not sure why you raise this because I never disputed it. However it's a fact that a minority of people suffer much worse side effects from all vaccines and some of them are life changing such as the many cases of Narcolepsy seen with the previously rushed out Swine Flu vaccines and things like Guillian Barre Syndrome. No vaccine is 100% free from such impacts. It's a gamble. For the vulnerable that gamble makes sense due to their risks of getting serious Covid illness. For others I'd suggest the gamble isn't necessary to take.


(Original post by ER141)
3. Anyone can die from covid. Yes, it is more likely if you are old or vulnerable, but children with no comorbidities have also died. Even if it was only one group that died, why would you not want to help prevent that? Which brings me on to my next point:

(Original post by ER141)
Again you're peddling "Project Fear" to make an argument. It doesn't wash. How many people have actually died specifically because of Covid in the young demographics? Answer = extremely few indeed. In fact the total number of so-called "Covid Deaths" in the UK is some 146,000 which is just 0.2% of the population and the vast majority of those have been older people with multiple underlying health conditions. Sure, there ARE some young people that have actually died, but the number is ridiculously tiny to the extent that it is dwarfed by the number of young people who die in car accidents or any number of other causes.


(Original post by ER141)
4. Herd immunity. Lots of vulnerable people can't have the vaccine because their condition prevents it. Only by having the rest of the population vaccinated and thereby reducing transmission will these people be protected. And like you say, you can still get the virus if you have had the vaccine, though it is MUCH less likely, and having everyone vaccinated will reduce the spread and make it much safer.

This is a classic failed argument of pro-vaxxers. The refutation of it is extremely simple. The demographic you refer to, people who are immune-compromised and thus cannot have the vaccine, are a tiny minority of the total population. The notion of vaccinating the entire world just to try and save that tiny demographic is both flawed, inherently wrong and morally unacceptable. That's because in vaccinating millions or billions of people you WILL harm a certain percentage of those people from serious side effects of the vaccines. It's natural accepted collateral damage. Some people will get Guillian Barre Syndrome, some may get narcolepsy, some will die. Hence you will end up harming far more people than you actually try to save in that tiny immune-compromised demographic. Your point is an old one that just does not stand up to any scrutiny.


(Original post by ER141)
5. Of course we still have to wear masks. It is protecting OTHER people. Yeah, if you've had the vaccine you may get asymptomatic covid rather than full blown covid, but you may still be able to transmit it to others. Until the majority of the population has had the vaccine, we cannot completely ease the pandemic restrictions. So if you want to be able to take of your mask eventually, then have the vaccine and encourage others to do so. And in terms of still having to be swabbed, you will have to do that whether or not you have had the vaccine, but you are more likely to be prevented from doing things because you are more likely to get covid if you haven't been vaccinated. And international travel will require you to show that you have been vaccinated. And the swabs take less than 2 minutes and aren't that bad, hardly an inconvenience.

Another totally flawed argument. You are suggesting effectively that herd immunity can only be achieved via vaccination which is patently wrong, scientifically wrong, historically wrong and not remotely supported by virology. Natural immunity gained from having had Covid is as strong if not stronger than vaccine-derived immunity and longer lasting. This has been discussed here:

https://www.thestudentroom.co.uk/sho....php?t=6978889

Herd immunity will therefore be achieved by the combination of those with natural immunity and those with vaccine-derived immunity. The pro-vax brigade simply want to try to ignore the former, want to bury it under the carpet or worse still try to disparage the enormous benefits of natural immunity. I find such traits disgusting and wholly out of accordance with science and no-one should be entertaining them. The restrictions we are all currently being subjected to (which themselves are wholly wrong) should be lifted when the vulnerable have all been vaccinated or have natural immunity. That's because they are the primary risk demographics, the groups in which the VAST MAJORITY of serious Covid illness and deaths occur. There is no benefit to society in locking down people who:

- are already naturally immune to Covid
- are tested and shown to be Covid negative
- are not remotely at risk of developing serious Covid illness

As for the swab tests again you make wholly glib statements. Most recently it has been revealed that test swabs have been sterilised using Ethylene Oxide which is a highly toxic substance, DNA altering and cancer causing. Getting swab tested is not something I am personally going to subject myself to. For that and other reasons, not least because the tests themselves are wholly unfit for purpose and produce ridiculously high levels of false positive and false negative results. As you state, the elitist global technocrats seeking to take over the world are going to try and cajole people into taking vaccines through attrition and removal of privileges like traveling by air or sea. Their desire and need to engage in such Orwellian behaviours for me speaks volumes about there being much more to these vaccines than Covid. Regardless I am quite happy to forego air and ship travel for the sake of preserving my health and/or life. Everyone needs to make their own decisions because one thing is VERY certain once you put whatever is in the vaccines in your body, there is no taking it out again.


(Original post by ER141)
6. The vaccine is safe. It has been tested in the same way that any other vaccine would be, just over a shorter time scale. This means trials going on in tandem rather than one after the other, so the length of the trials themselves were still sufficient.

Sorry but no that's a complete lie. Totally false. The vaccines have only been tested for short term safety. Long term safety testing has not yet been done and will be part of future testing as will other areas of testing. Other vaccines take years to complete development and testing, Covid vaccines have not been through that entire process. Here are the FACTS from Pfizer themselves:

https://www.nejm.org/doi/10.1056/NEJMoa2034577

It states:

"Assessment of long-term safety and efficacy for this vaccine will occur, but it cannot be in the context of maintaining a placebo group for the planned follow-up period of 2 years after the second dose. These data do not address whether vaccination prevents asymptomatic infection; a serologic end point that can detect a history of infection regardless of whether symptoms were present (SARS-CoV-2 N-binding antibody) will be reported later. Furthermore, given the high vaccine efficacy and the low number of vaccine breakthrough cases, potential establishment of a correlate of protection has not been feasible at the time of this report."

"This report does not address the prevention of Covid-19 in other populations, such as younger adolescents, children, and pregnant women"

"Safety and immune response data from this trial after immunization of adolescents 12 to 15 years of age will be reported subsequently, and additional studies are planned to evaluate BNT162b2 in pregnant women, children younger than 12 years, and those in special risk groups, such as immunocompromised persons"

As can be seen a whole raft of testing areas HAVE NOT yet been completed and thus your statement about the vaccines having gone through all the normal checks is completely wrong. Don't worry though. lot's of people like yourself have not bothered to do the actual research and have simply swallowed the spoon-fed narratives peddled by pro-vax groups. Hopefully I have helped to make you better informed now.


(Original post by ER141)
"The emergency use authorisation is partly to allow everyone to get the vaccine, because they don't want to give people unnecessary drugs, but this one IS necessary. And in terms of long term effects, the vaccine is transient, it will be broken down by your body pretty soon after you develop immunity, the only thing that will remain is the antibodies."

The EUA is given because we are in a pandemic situation with a minority of people dying but who need the option of taking the lesser of two evils. That is to say that the "at risk" vulnerable people are in the unenviable situation of having to choose between a virus that might kill them and a vaccine that is not fully tested for safety. The EUA gives them the freedom to make that unenviable choice between those evils. Were we not in a pandemic situation these vaccines would NOT gain authorisation simple as. The rest of your statement there is just Pharma spiel. Pharma have a history of telling the public that their vaccines and medicines are safe when they in fact turn out not to be. Some examples:

The "Cutter Incident" Polio
https://devastatingdisasters.com/the...incident-1955/


Swine Flu Vaccine Victims

These NHS Staff Were Told The Swine Flu Vaccine Was Safe, And Now They're Suffering The Consequences

https://www.buzzfeed.com/shaunlinter...ccine-was-safe

Brain-Damaged UK Victims of Swine Flu Vaccine to Get £60 Million Compensation
https://www.ibtimes.co.uk/brain-damaged-uk-victims-swine-flu-vaccine-get-60-million-compensation-1438572


(Original post by ER141)
7. "only" 90% effective?! That's amazing coverage! Almost no vaccines are that effective! And then you say that covid reduces re-infection by 91%. So... the same number as the vaccine? And some of the vaccines are 95% effective.

You've gotten confused here. It is "Natural Immunity" that reduces re-infection by 91%

I agree that 90% efficacy is great for a vaccine but at the same time I am researched enough to know that:

1. What happens in vaccine trials is not the same as happens in real life scenarios
2. Pharma have a horrible history of fraud and falsifying trial data
3. The 90% efficacy rates are based on a ridiculously low number of Covid cases in the trials

Again you probably haven't bothered to do the research here and have just swallowed the media sensationalist figure of 90%

Both the Pfizer and Moderna vaccine trials, despite using around 44,000 trial volunteers, only saw around 200 actual cases of Covid. See here:

https://www.pfizer.com/news/press-re...vid-19-vaccine

In the case of Pfizer trial there were only 170 cases of Covid, 162 were in the placebo group, 8 were in the vaccinated group.
Whilst that result suggests a 90% effectiveness rate it is nevertheless based only on a tiny handful of just 170 cases, yet we have embarked on the roll-out of the vaccine to millions of people. I remain personally unconvinced of that efficacy and am not impressed at all about that tiny sample size used to create this 90% effectiveness figure. Each to their own.

The Moderna vaccine trial was no different. It only saw 185 cases of Covid in the placebo group and 11 among the vaccinated group. These are tiny sample sizes to be drawing such life impacting conclusions from for vaccinating millions of people. Again source here:

https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa2035389


(Original post by ER141)
8. We don't know how long immunity acquired through contact with the actual virus will last. The reason we need yearly flu vaccines is because it mutates so quickly. Covid already has several strains, and we don't know whether 'natural' immunity will protect against them, just as we aren't certain if the vaccines will. Having so many hosts may enable the virus to mutate quicker than other coronaviruses. Also the common cold can be caused by a coronavirus. Anyone here immune to common colds? No, because they mutate so quickly.

Again this is just Pharma mantra to support the pro-vax position. Natural immunity is good. Very good as proven by the numerous studies which are discussed in the link to the thread I provided earlier. It's also a fact that 20% to 50% of the population already had levels of immunity to Covid before Covid even came along. It was immunity gained from past bouts of colds, Flu and ILIs years before the advent of Covid, demonstrating admirably how important, strong and long lasting natural immunity is. Your attempts to ignore or play down natural immunity are extremely poor and disappointing TBH. Studies reveal all of this:

Covid-19: Do many people have pre-existing immunity?
https://www.bmj.com/content/370/bmj.m3563

Targets of T Cell Responses to SARS-CoV-2 Coronavirus in Humans with COVID-19 Disease and Unexposed Individuals
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/32473127/

Pre-existing and de novo humoral immunity to SARS-CoV-2 in humans
https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1...e2=tf_ipsecsha

Phenotype of SARS-CoV-2-specific T-cells in COVID-19 patients with acute respiratory distress syndrome
https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1...e2=tf_ipsecsha

SARS-CoV-2-specific T cell immunity in cases of COVID-19 and SARS, and uninfected controls
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/32668444/

Pre-existing immunity to SARS-CoV-2: the knowns and unknowns
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/32636479/

Past Colds and Flu provide T-Cell Immunity
https://www.nih.gov/news-events/nih-...ize-sars-cov-2


What you are doing here is trying to rob me and others of our innate natural immunity inheritance. This is the wonder and strength of a healthy human body. To be able to get infected with viruses, to mount good immune responses to them and to thereby learn how to recognise and deal with them in the future. Natural immunity creates important T-Cell and B-Cell immunity rather than just antibodies. Natural immunity to Covid is good, strong and lasting. It is appreciated that those "at risk" and vulnerable don't have the luxury of getting natural immunity and thus should take the vaccination route. Those who have now already recovered from Covid imho don't need to get vaccinated and it must always be a free choice.


(Original post by ER141)
9. "wE aLl KnOw ThAt mAnY oF tHoSe DeAtHs WeRe NoT cAuSeD bY cOvId." No. Yes, some of these people died from other things, but often those other things shouldn't have killed them (at least yet), but it did because they also had covid. Covid played a role in all of those deaths. It doesn't count if you have covid and then got shot in the head, those numbers aren't included. Most of those deaths would not have happened if covid wasn't around.

You're completely wrong. The definition of a "Covid Death" is any death that occurred where the deceased had been positive for Covid up to 28 days before death. There has also been a lot of double counting not least because the "unfit for purpose" PCR test kits pick up the same virus up to 90 days after first infection. So if I test you today and you are positive I can test you 90 days later and the test will still show you as positive when in fact you are not at all contagious. Because of this health workers are not tested more frequently than this. This is not up for discussion as it has been legally ruled, see below:

Landmark legal ruling finds that Covid tests are not fit for purpose
https://www.rt.com/op-ed/507937-covid-pcr-test-fail/

also here:

WHO Finally Admits COVID19 PCR Test Has a ‘Problem’
https://principia-scientific.com/who...has-a-problem/

and here's the UK Government statement on usage of the PCR Tests

https://www.gov.uk/government/public...pital-settings

"Immunocompetent staff, patients and residents who have tested positive for SARS-CoV-2 by PCR should be exempt from routine re-testing by PCR or LFD antigen tests (for example, repeated whole setting screening or screening prior to hospital discharge) within a period of 90 days from their initial illness onset or test (if asymptomatic) unless they develop new COVID-19 symptoms. This is because fragments of inactive virus can be persistently detected by PCR in respiratory tract samples following infection – long after a person has completed their isolation period and is no longer infectious."


(Original post by ER141)
10. What the hell is a vaccine junkie. That's not real. You cannot become addicted to vaccines, it's impossible, that's not how it works. Yes, people have vaccines every year, because they are GOOD FOR YOU and help society. I don't call people vegetable junkies if they eat their 5 a day. You can stop having the vaccine at any point, nobody can force you, though it is highly advisable that you have them.

Happy for you if you believe getting repeatedly vaccinated year on year is "good for you". By all means go and get the shots. I believe differently and science shows me that I have good cause to be cautious. Up until a few years ago Pharma were putting Thimerosal (50% Mercury) in vaccines until the public became fully aware and they abolished it. Science also now recognises that getting repeated flu shots lessens the effects of vaccines and leaves you vulnerable. Here's the science if you are interested in educating yourself:

The Oxford Academic - Journal Of Infectious Diseases
https://academic.oup.com/jid/article/222/2/173/5554481

"there is accumulating evidence suggesting that repeat seasonal vaccination may, in specific instances,result in reduced antibody responses and diminished vaccine effectiveness. The so-called “Canadian Problem” was one of the most notorious recent examples of a possible increase
in risk of infection associated with prior vaccination. Skowronski et al reported that individuals who had been vaccinated in the 2008–2009 season, before the emergence of the 2009 swine flu pandemic, experienced higher rates of infection with the pandemic strain than individuals who were not vaccinated in the preceding year"

Repeated flu shots may blunt effectiveness
https://www.cmaj.ca/content/187/6/E180.long

Study adds more data on effects of consecutive-year flu shots
https://www.cidrap.umn.edu/news-pers...year-flu-shots


(Original post by ER141)
11. There is no evidence that natural immunity lasts longer than immunity due to the vaccine. Covid has been around less than a year. We just don't know how long immunity for either of these will last, but probably if you get covid, you can probably get it again in the future as the virus mutates. See point 8.

Again just wrong. You have again not done the research. Natural immunity is discussed in the thread link I gave above. Go read it. SARS-COV-2 is a member of the Coronavirus family of which there are many viruses. Past studies of other SARS viruses have shown that natural immunity gained lasts many years. Just read the links in the thread. There is every indication that natural immunity is strong and long lasting. There is as yet, no such indication that vaccine-derived immunity will be any where near as lasting and in fact the NHS is already planning to give people booster shots in Autumn and then on a yearly basis after that. That suggests vaccine-derived immunity is very short lived . . . or that they just want to create a very lucrative multi-billion dollar vaccine business for Covid going forward. Take your pick.


(Original post by ER141)
To conclude, vaccines are safe, we need higher levels of vaccination for herd immunity, anybody of any age and health can die of covid, and long covid is real and dangerous. I had more points in my original response to this poster but that was on the app and it didn't post for some reason.

More Project Fear waffle.

The vaccines are proven to be safe in the short term only. Long term testing and impacts HAVE NOT yet been assessed. It is what it is. A risk. A gamble. Herd immunity will be achieved by the combination of BOTH natural and vaccine-derived immunity. You could achieve herd immunity solely through natural immunity but the mortality would be unacceptable and that's why the most vulnerable need to get vaccinated. Anybody can die of Covid yes, and equally anybody can die of a lightning strike or being run over by a bus. Making glib scaremongering statements as you do helps none of us. What matters are the real life statistics relating to Covid mortality in different demographics. The young are extremely unlikely to develop serious Covid illness let alone die from it. That's a fact They have more chance of dying from a car accident than from Covid. By your scaremongering nonsense they should all sell their cars and never drive again !


It is not my intention in this reply to be antagonistic or disparaging but the fact is that 99% of your points are false and completely un-researched and little more than parroting the party line mantras. The facts matter. Without the facts we can not make informed decisions.

You haven't read the vaccine trial data, you haven't read the plethora of studies relating to natural immunity, to vaccine side effects and the like.

Yet here you are trying to sway hearts and minds on a forum without that essential reading and background.

Not good.
I do appreciate the effort that has gone into this response.

You talk about project fear. Isn't that the reason you are telling people not to have the vaccine? You scared of side effects that are incredibly rare and in some cases not proven (such as the blood clots). I can't find a single reason NOT to have the vaccine. It is true that vaccines aren't completely effective, which is why we need as many people as possible vaccinated, so that there is herd immunity. And in terms of long covid, we don't know how many people have it, because it is long term, but it's actually a reasonable number (just a quick search on pubmed came up with several articles on the impact).

In terms of the number of people dying, yes that is technically a small number of the population, but why does that mean we shouldn't care that people are dying? Having the vaccine protects other people too, I cannot say this enough. And for comparison, one of the leading causes of death worldwide is coronary heart disease (caused by several things), which causes 63,000 deaths in the UK each year, an average of 170 people a day. The total covid deaths in the UK (caused by just one virus), given that it is barely over a year of data, is 127,000. At the moment we are down to 58 deaths in a day, but at the peak on the 23rd Jan 2021 there were 1,248 deaths on that day. It is a huge killer. A total of 1,752 people were killed in reported road traffic accidents in Great Britain in 2019. As many people died in car accidents in 2019 as died from covid in ONE WEEKEND in January.

Vaccinating lots of people (which does protect themselves) to help others is "morally wrong"? No? Most people don't suffer serious side effects. Waaaay more people suffer long covid (as a percentage of covid sufferers) than people who have life changing reactions to a vaccin (as a percentage of people vaccinated). Direct from the NHS website: "For example, a study into the vaccine used during the 2009 swine flu outbreak found that for every million people who had the vaccination, there were fewer than 2 extra cases of Guillain-Barré syndrome. And evidence suggests that you are far more likely to get Guillain-Barré syndrome from an infection, such as the flu, than the vaccine designed to prevent the infection, such as the flu jab." So yeah, that's not a valid reason.

"A large body of evidence supports the safety of vaccines, and multiple studies and scientific reviews have found no association between vaccination and deaths except in rare cases." and "However, making general assumptions and drawing conclusions about vaccinations causing deaths based on spontaneous reports to VAERS – some of which might be anecdotal or second-hand – or case reports in the media, is not a scientifically valid practice." This is referring to people reporting side effects, which the pharmaceutical company obviously has to take seriously, but is later proven to be unrelated to the vaccine, such as Guillain-Barre syndrome. I got both quotes from this paper: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4599698/

In regard to herd immunity, many vaccines are less effective in elderly people, so herd immunity also benefits them, and they make up quite a large percentage of the population. And lots of people do actually take immunosuppressive drugs, such as those with severe allergies, those with HIV, anyone who has had an organ transplant, and those undergoing chemotherapy, so it's not as small a group as you might think.

I never said herd immunity can only be achieved via vaccination, but you seem to be suggesting we deliberately give healthy people covid so that there is herd immunity, which is incredibly unethical, vaccines are so much safer than covid.. You say I am "patently wrong, scientifically wrong, historically wrong and not remotely supported by virology," but this isn't true. Natural infections do work towards herd immunity, but the only way to actually get anywhere near to eliminating a disease is with vaccination and other preventative measures such as quarantining and good hygiene (see the book Outbreaks and Epidemics by Meera Senthilingham, published since covid). I haven't heard anything bad said about those with natural immunity. At all. Nobody is sweeping those that have had covid under the rug, it is taken into account, but the vaccine will provide additional protection on top of your existing immunity. This is because your body targets certain antigens to make antibodies to when it is infected. The vaccine is based off the coronavirus spike protein, which will cause DIFFERENT antibodies to be produced. So in some causes natural immunity may be more effective and in some cases the vaccine will be; it will depend on the strain and what mutations it has. And people that have had the vaccine are just as locked down as those who have had covid, and are equally immune. Also how do you suggest policing whether or not somebody is allowed to break lockdown? A little medical card that says "I had covid AND I have been tested for antibodies regularly"? You would have to be stopped at every corner. It would also encourage people to try to catch covid so that they can leave their house early. Overall, a terrible idea, just keep everyone locked down until it is safe.

I hope you never have to have a wound dressed because that is also sterilised with ethyline oxide, lots (~50%) of medical equipment is because it is a gas, and lots of medical equipment can't be exposed to heat or moisture for sterilisation.

"As you state, the elitist global technocrats seeking to take over the world are going to try and cajole people into taking vaccines through attrition and removal of privileges like traveling by air or sea." No, because pharmaceutical companies don't also own airlines on the whole. How would airlines benefit from you needing to be vaccinated to travel. "once you put whatever is in the vaccines in your body, there is no taking it out again." True, but your body breaks it down pretty quickly, so there won't be any trace of it before too long.

In terms of the long term studies, I never said it was safe for pregnant women or children to take, I was aware that it is not recommended for them; I had to do a course on the vaccines when I signed up to be a volunteer vaccinator for st johns ambulance. These people also need to be protect, that's another reason we need herd immunity. The website you linked also says that safety appears to be similar to other viral vaccines (which are safe btw). Vaccine trials usually take place over several years because they run trials one after the other, whereas here they were run concurrently, to speed it up, but the trials themselves were rigorous. Another reason vaccine development takes so long is the massive amount of paperwork that needs doing, but the paperwork itself was expedited through the system (not done to a lower standard, just quicker).

"1. What happens in vaccine trials is not the same as happens in real life scenarios
2. Pharma have a horrible history of fraud and falsifying trial data
3. The 90% efficacy rates are based on a ridiculously low number of Covid cases in the trials"

The vaccine trials were real life scenarios. Like, people were given a vaccine and then they go about their normal lives, I don't know how you think it could be any more real life than that. Source, my mum is a research nurse who was involved in these trials.
There probably are some instances of fraud and falsification, as there are bad eggs in literally any industry, but 99% of trial data is accurate. From my mum I know the hoops the have to jump through to get the data, it needs to be very accurate and well recorded.
Low number of covid cases in the trials... probably because the vaccine worked? And didn't let them get covid? Radical thought I know, the vaccine working, but just think about it. With the numbers you mentioned, that is 100% a significant difference, even if we can't be certain it's exactly 90% that is still a massive reduction in covid cases.

I'm not trying to downplay natural immunity. I am saying that it is far safer to get immunity from a vaccine that by contracting covid. If you already have immunity then good for you, but if the virus mutates then your immune system won't recognise it, whether you have natural immunity or vaccine-acquired immunity. My point was that we need yearly vaccinations probably (we don't know yet how fast it mutates), because we don't want people to get a new strain of covid every year. I'd rather rely on a vaccine that I know works than take a gamble that I am one of the minority of people with existing immunity.

From the NIH: "The only well-established hazard of thimerosal at doses found in vaccines is delayed-type hypersensitivity reactions." Ingredients don't necessarily make the whole thing bad. There is arsenic in apples but nobody cares about that.

The NHS making a lucrative vaccine business? You know they have to pay for those vaccines right? It is costing them money. And other coronaviruses are not the same as covid, yes we can PREDICT that natural immunity might last a while but we do not know. And of course the NHS is planning on booster shots, better to plan and not need it than to get to autumn and not have a plan in place in case we do need it.

Again, I will say that vaccines reduce transmission. If you read the earlier post by lasona ("You can still become infected from a virus after getting vaccinated, but your body will be able to fight it much more quickly. Vaccines will reduce virus shedding though, which basically means less of the virus will come out of your nose and mouth.") you will see that. Yes, natural immunity will also work here, but I'd much rather have the vaccine than wait to get a virus that may or may not cause me serious harm.

I do appreciate that you have done some research, it just appears that what you are taking from the research is "I will probably be okay, **** everyone else," which is a shame.

Out of genuine curiosity, have you had antibody testing? As in, do you know you have antibodies?
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PilgrimOfTruth
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(Original post by Alice863)
I would rather not engage with anti-vaxxers
That you have to label people such speaks volumes.
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ER141
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Exactly, that poster and others are doing nothing more but spouting what the government tells them rather than doing their own research. The fact is that these vaccines have been emergency approved. If anything were to be wrong with them, the state, and not the companies supplying the vaccines, are liable. I think that alone is reason enough to do your own research rather than relying on what these politicians say. They have already admitted that recipients of the AstraZeneca vaccine will need booster shots as it is only 40-50% effective against the new variant identified in South Africa according to a peer reviewed study in the New England Journal of Medicine

https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.105...=featured_home
(Original post by PilgrimOfTruth)
More false material. You're not doing well ER141 and I strongly suggest you do some research before continuing to post such things.

What you fail to realise and understand is that IT IS THE SAME immune system in your body that mounts a response to either the SARS-COV-2 virus itself or to the materials in the vaccines. The vaccines are not some magic bullet that creates a force field around you. They just force your body to mount an immune response.

You have absolutely no basis whatsoever to suggest that once the body has made that immune response, that there is a lower chance of transmission of the virus from the vaccine route than from the natural immunity route. I'll say it again. It is THE SAME immune system of your own body that is creating and mounting the immune response either way. What matters therefore is how strong that immune response is.
In both cases you could still carry the virus and transmit it to others. Hell you can simply have the virus on your hands from touching an infected surface and thus spread it to other surfaces. Vaccination is NOT some nirvana miracle that makes everything go away. Vaccination is important for the "at risk" vulnerable demographic and is needed to ensure they don't get serious Covid illness and die. Even in this respect they are not bullet-proof. A great many people who get vaccinated won't be well protected, since they are 90% effective at best meaning 1 in 10 people won't have good protection, and besides that everyone's immune response to a vaccine is different. Some people produce a strong immune response, others less so.

There are plenty of reasons not to get vaccinated so again your statement there is totally wrong.

1. If your body has already learned how to recognise and deal with the virus from having had Covid, it does not need to be taught again. That notion is patently ridiculous. So those with natural immunity don't need vaccination imho.

2. If you have a strong body and immune system and are not in the "at risk" demographics then it's entirely valid to choose to take the risk of getting Covid and dealing with it yourself to gain strong lasting natural immunity rather than get vaccinated and then have to get repeated vaccinations the rest of your life.

3. The vaccines are not fully tested. They are safety tested for the short term but not the long term plus the RNA "vaccines" are a new technology that is being used for the first time in earnest. It would be entirely valid to refuse vaccination for those reasons and to sit and wait for 1-2 years to see what happens to people being vaccinated from 2021 onwards.

and there are more valid reasons besides these obvious ones.
Okay I AM NOT SAYING that natural immunity is worse than being vaccinated. I never said that. I will change my earlier statement from "there is a lower chance of transmission if you are vaccinated" to "there is a lower chance of transmission if you are immune." Happy? It's the presence of antibodies that makes the difference. I'm saying there is lower transmission if you have antibodies than if you have never had the virus or the vaccine. If you are going to get covid rather than have the vaccine, please make sure you continue to wear a mask (not specifically you, I know you already had it, just in general), as you will spread it when you are asymptomatic.
I understand your concerns listed here even if I don't personally agree with them. I would ask you to please reconsider getting vaccinated next year. There will be more data if that makes you happy, but also your natural immunity may have worn out and there is no way of knowing without getting tested. And if the virus mutates (which is likely due to the sheer number of cases) then there is no guarantee that natural immunity (or vaccine immunity) will work against it. It might, and data may suggest that, but there is no way of knowing. And the biological imperative for the virus is to survive, to find a way to infect new hosts, so if we start starving it of hosts then there will be a selection pressure on it to mutate to get a way around this (by trial and error obviously). People may well need boosters but it may also leave you open to re-infection.
As a genuine question, is it just this vaccine you are against because of its newness or are you against all vaccines?
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